Prioritising What Clients Need to Hear For Effective Coaching

John: 00:00:00

Hi, Angie.

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Angie: John.

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John: Angie.

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There's something I wanna say.

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Angie: Okay.

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I'm listening.

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John: Oh, actually, no, it doesn't matter.

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Nothing.

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It doesn't matter.

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It doesn't matter.

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Angie: What whatcha saying right now?

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John: Sometimes.

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This is where something I've

been thinking about sometimes.

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there are things that

we don't say to clients.

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I was on a coaching call recently where.

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There was so much going on with the

client that if I said everything

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that I could have said, I think

her brain might have exploded.

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So.

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didn't say as much as I could have.

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I had to really decide what I wanted to

say to her, and so it got me thinking

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about the times where we don't say or

what, well, we don't really say everything

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to a client where we hold stuff back.

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And there are also times where

there are things people sometimes.

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Ourselves included, probably, where we

say things that we probably shouldn't

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say to a client or the things where

we don't always know exactly what we

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should or shouldn't say to the client.

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I thought, eh, we could

talk about that this week.

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What do you think?

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Angie: I think that is a great topic

because I don't think any, we're

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not really, we haven't really talked

about that in the past, so mm-hmm.

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John: We haven't

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Angie: place to, to delve into for sure.

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John: Let's do it then, because let

me, let me explain the situation

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with, with the client who was on a

call with, so this was a recorded,

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a recorded call for my other show.

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so it was a free coaching for the

client, but on the proviso that

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she lets me publish the episode for

other people to benefit from as well.

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And in that is that there was

so many things that I could see.

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Going on for what?

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That she seemed unaware of in

her business that were problems.

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there were problems with the

structure, problems with the website,

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problems with the delivery, and

the performance aspects of it.

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Problems with the talk

titles and abstracts.

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I, everything I looked at, I sort

of think okay, kind of doing all

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the right things, but not doing all

the right things in the right way.

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So we could, I could go into, I

could go through the whole list.

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I could go through the whole list of

everything I've seen here, but I think

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her brain might just explode in her head.

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so I, I ended up having to say

further, what do, what does she

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most need to hear right now?

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What does, what's gonna make the biggest

difference to her right now that she

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does need to hear and can do some work

on, even if all the other staff is.

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Was still important, less important than

this, and that meant that I had to, I

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had to be very careful not to try and

overwhelm or overload her, but to give

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her enough and enough understanding and

guidance around what she, the, the main

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problem that she couldn't really see and

didn't know how to correct for herself.

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Angie: so, you know, interestingly,

as you were talking, the first

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thing that really came to my mind

is that do I say to my clients?

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that as a coach, that's a very.

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Kind of slippery slope because some of

my clients, I am also a consultant to.

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So when I'm just doing cure coaching,

it's not a lot of what I'm saying, as

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much as it's what I'm asking, right?

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To help them dive the deeper.

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So I think there has to first be

kind of the differentiation between.

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What am I saying?

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Because I guess this was

a business client, right?

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That you were talking to and it was

somewhat of a consulting, right?

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You're coaching her, but there's

also some consulting to that.

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so I think it's important to

Just with people listening.

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'cause you know, people

wanna be well wait a minute.

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You always say, but, so there is a

difference between are you purely

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coaching or if it's your own business.

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'cause there's companies out there that

are you know, coaching companies that are

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do not consult, do not share opinions.

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Do not share experiences.

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I don't go for that.

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I, I always feel as a coach.

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Part of experience of either life

or as a coach is that you're able to

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share things because maybe you've been

there, maybe, but I think it's fair

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to say that if you're purely coaching,

but then you have a consulting moment,

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you, you say that, Hey, you know what?

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I don't normally come to our sessions

this way, as you know, but would you

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mind if I shared a perspective or an

experience that I had similar to this?

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John: Yeah.

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Angie: And be careful, right?

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How deeply you go.

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Don't make it about you.

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It should not be a 10 minute

dissertation on the story of

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your business, or whatever.

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so you do have, but, but when you work

for yourself, listen, you have the

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ability to, to kind of do what you wanna

do and not, so there's that piece of it.

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So if it's in a mixed bag, kind of,

you know, relationship and dynamic.

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definitely think we have to be very

aware of the person to whom we are

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speaking, coaching, consulting,

because to your point, we, we might

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have some clear answers in certain

cases, but are they ready to hear that?

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Are we gonna push them into overwhelm?

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Are we gonna have more negative

results than positive results?

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So you had to refrain.

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You had to go, wait a

minute, wait a minute.

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Let me not overwhelm her.

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Let me prioritize the message here.

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John: I think whether it's coaching, pure

coaching or consulting or whatever, I

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do think there's an important element of

considering what do they probably most

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need to hear right now and what do the

most need to get and what are the sort

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of questions or how ways that we can.

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Guide them through to that.

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You know, if we're, if we're doing it

through coaching questions, they're

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pulling the answers out to them.

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We still want to guide and direct the,

the questioning to try and take them at

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least down that track of, alright, let's

explore this area and you will give the

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answers, but I'm gonna guide you, you

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Angie: Mm-hmm.

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John: the light over here.

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and consultancy is a little different.

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But the principle is the same.

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You need to look at what can

they realistically manage?

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What's most important here?

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What do they, what, what do

I think they most need to get

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out of this, even if that's not

ultimately what they end up getting.

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but yeah, it's, it's essential that we

say the right thing that, you and I have

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taught before, I think many times actually

on the show, about how we don't share.

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personal information really with clients,

and I still think that that's one of

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the things what not to say to clients,

not to share stuff that's too personal.

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There might be exceptions.

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And again, we've talked

about those before as well.

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where there are times where

you might share something a bit

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personal, but ultimately you're

not inviting them into your life.

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They're inviting you into

theirs as an external.

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Observe a guide somebody who's

outside of them in their lives who

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can see things more clearly than

they can and, and potentially help

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guide and direct and whatever through

whatever they're going through.

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Angie: Well, lemme ask you this.

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So when you thought about this, when

we started talking about this today,

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is it, you know, it, I guess it, the

other question could be, you know,

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is this also a topical question?

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Right.

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Are there topics that you just.

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You just avoid in your sessions

with people consulting or

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otherwise doesn't even matter.

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And I'm gonna raise hands and feet to this

and say there are absolute no-nos that

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I don't even allow within my sessions.

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So remember way back when, when I

was talking about a client that I

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had that, you know, told me that she

identified as the female biological

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body part, and that was a challenging.

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So, so here's the thing,

you know, I, I just it.

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I, you know, think of it as the

family holidays or you know,

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gatherings that you go to.

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People always make the joke.

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We don't talk politics,

we don't talk religion.

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And I will not talk about any

of those things unless it is

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relevant to their growth and me

needing to have an understanding.

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So with that client, remember I said

at the time when she said, well, you

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know, I identify as, and I had to take

a breath and remain right as a coach

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and be professional and not a what?

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Because this was many, many, many years

ago, folks, so it wasn't yesterday where

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everybody's identifying as and that's

fine, but, but, My answer to her was this.

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I said, okay, so let me ask you this.

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Is there a relevance to our coaching

and growth that you think this could,

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you know, where it might show itself?

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And she's no, I'm not right now.

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I think that, you know, I think

that you just want, would, might,

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might wanna know, okay, fine, let's

get to why you're really here.

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And I will say once or twice it came

up, she would I was transcending and

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I was all right, I can't relate to it.

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I can't help you because

it's not something.

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In my, at the time was in my stratosphere.

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So the point that I'm making is that

there are some taboo triggering, hate

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the word, but you know, look at, you

just have to know as a professional

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that unless it is absolutely relevant to

their growth and their outcomes, that you

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stay away from certain subjects because

you might listen, they may insult you.

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You might insult them by just matter

of factly saying something, right.

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So have you ever, let me ask you

this, this is a really funny question.

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Have you ever been insulted by a client?

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Indirectly.

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Now I'm not saying they said,

Hey John, you're a butthole.

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you know, outwardly, but

have they ever said anything?

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Maybe they didn't know you were gay.

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And they said, oh, those gay bloy blahs.

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Right?

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I'm just, I'm making up the

scenarios, but have you ever.

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John: nothing is springing to

mind, to be honest with you.

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I don't think so.

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I don't think so.

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I, I don't think I've really ever,

there, there were times when I.

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Some people have said some stuff

that's maybe a little uncomfortable

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on coaching calls, I don't think I've

ever really been in a situation where

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I felt personally kind of attacked or,

or anything that, but, but that could

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also be because I think I do try to

stay pretty detached in that sense.

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I think.

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maybe not all coaches would agree with

me on this, but I do feel, for me there's

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an element to which part of my goal on

a coaching call is to be emotionally

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detached from the stuff that they

can't be emotionally detached from.

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'cause it's their life.

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To be able to take a sort of pragmatic,

dispassionate view of what's going on.

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It's all right, well, is that actually

good or beneficial or is it not?

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It's I'm not there to judge

whether it's good or bad.

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I'm just there to say, all right,

this is, this is what's going,

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this seems that's what's going on.

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This is, seems how you feel

about that and check in.

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Is that, is that correct?

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because otherwise, you know,

there's, there's always the danger.

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a lot of coaches I think are

very, very empathic people.

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there's a very strong danger in coaching

relationships sometimes, sometimes of

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over empathizing with the clients that

you're working with, and that could end

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up with you being pulled into whatever.

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Drama or emotional situation

they're going through, especially

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if you've had similar experiences.

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So, so I think it's very important

to, to be able to take that step back

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and, be a little more analytical.

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you, I,

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Angie: Of course.

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John: view my role as a coach

partly as well, to be listening

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as much to what they're saying

and to what they're not saying.

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Angie: Well, and listen, and I

: 10000

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Your job as a coach is to not

show up with an agenda, right?

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To show up organically and just

allow it, allow the sessions to

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flow, and you be the guide, right?

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We've talked about that.

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That's basic coaching to me.

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Basic coaching 1 0 1.

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Not easy to do.

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I have inadvertently been insulted by

clients who say, something just derogatory

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about whether it's a strong belief,

whether the, so, okay, let me just be, let

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me not dance around the, the journey here.

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there was a client I had probably about

four years ago who, Just said something

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about my religion, but they didn't know

they were saying it about my religion,

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and they kind of went on and on about it.

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And I was really getting kind of,

you know, the coach and me wanted

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to kind of go, no, no, just shut up.

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And then after four minutes of this rant.

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I, I said, Hey, so and so,

do you mind if I pause you?

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Because it sounds kind of you're

a little bit on this rant and when

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I, you know, is there a purpose

to what you're sharing today?

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And I just, so this is

pragmatic me, right?

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This is me being in coach

mode about any rant, right?

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I didn't wanna approach it They

were ranting anyway, right?

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And it was four minutes I was

watching and I'm okay, enough.

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I would've done that anyway

with any other topic as well.

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And they said something well, I have to

just tell you, I just can't stand these

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people and the way that they think.

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And I was okay.

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So I said, okay, so let me

just share something with you.

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So to ensure the safety and

the progress of our coaching

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relationship, I am those people.

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So.

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Let's make an agreement to, to,

unless you don't wanna coach

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with me as a result of that.

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Oh no.

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it was very, I was, I have to be

honest, John, I was so shocked.

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I'm sitting there with an adult

professional, older than me

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person that was being very, and

I, I, I did, I have to be on it.

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I tried.

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I came in and said, Hey, is this helpful?

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Is this your growth?

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And it was well, let me

just tell you about them.

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And I was so what do you not say?

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I will tell you that I did end that

relationship because I didn't, I

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knew, I'm being honest here, that

knowing how, that, because it was,

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that maybe he would've, maybe, maybe

all of my clients feel that way.

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But if they haven't shared it with

me, then I'm allowed to be, you know,

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sitting in my bliss of ignorance.

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But with this person I knew as a

coach that I, I, you know what?

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I kept hearing those people, those people,

and I was oh my goodness, I'm those.

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So I didn't, I, I didn't, I did two

weeks later, end the relationship.

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John: Yeah, no, I, I could understand

that there, there are clients

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I've backed away from because.

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Of misalignment, things I just

couldn't things I couldn't support

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them with that I wouldn't feel

comfortable working with them on.

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and I, I made the call.

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I generally made the call not to have

the conversation with them as I did.

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They didn't really need to know why I was

backing away, just that I, I just felt I

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wasn't, wasn't the right coach for them.

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That was really all they needed to know.

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because ultimately, you know,

I probably said it before

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in the show, but my, I seem.

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the job as my job as a coach, anyone's

job as a coach is not to disabuse

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anybody of their beliefs, just

because you you yields are right.

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that that's not what you're there for.

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But, and, and if that's what you

want to do, you need to probably

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get out of coaching and, and maybe

go into politics, but, or religion.

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Angie: Well, what's your big No-no.

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so what are the things that you.

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So for me it's those couple of things

that I just feel can be very triggering.

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And said, maybe we don't get into

our whole life stories and we

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keep things really personal, more

personal and we don't cross that.

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remember I said that plexiglass,

I can still see you, but I

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don't, I can't touch you.

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So what are other lines in the sand

for you on things you don't say,

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to clients?

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John: sure.

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it, I don't think, I don't ever say

my, I don't ever say judgements on, on

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their personality or their actions or

anything that that's not for me to do.

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I can, I can ask them how they feel

about things and what they think of

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themselves or, you know, whatever.

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I can get them to express

that and that's fine.

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That's what I'm there for.

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but it's not, it's not for me to

say, this is right, this is wrong.

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This is who you should be,

this is who you shouldn't be.

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Angie: Mm-hmm.

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John: very, very different.

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Very,

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Angie: think people are actually able

to stay out of the co the, I'm just

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asking since we're here talking about it.

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and I'd be curious to listeners,

are you, if you're already a coach,

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are you, are you actually able.

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I'm just saying this to stay out of that

judgment zone because that's what happens.

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I don't know.

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I probably talked about this at the

beginning of last year in one of our,

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one of our recordings that I didn't

realize that there was even good judgment,

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as a coach and when I was coaching

somebody, there was something that

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she shared and I was that is so great.

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I'm so happy that you

were able to do that.

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In the next session, she was Hmm, there's

something I need to share with you.

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And I said, okay.

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And she's last session I was

feeling pretty judged by you.

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And I thought, in my head I was

thinking, I said nothing but good

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things to her, which was true.

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And I said, I, I'm so sorry.

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I said, can you elaborate because

I, I'm not recognizing it.

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She said, well, I did X, Y, and Z, and

which I'd been working on and avoiding.

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And you know, I got there

and you told me it was great.

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And to me that was a judgment.

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And I was wow.

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That was a big moment for me as

a coach because I think we always

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think of judgment as good or bad.

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And her mind was, and I said,

listen, this is so, I'm so curious.

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Not for me, but tell me your perspective.

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And she said by you saying

I did something great.

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To me it was interpreted that

everything else I did before was bad.

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Wow.

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Okay.

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John: I, I think, I think there's

probably a lot of other areas

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that this could lead us into that

we, I think we won't get today.

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but I would be, I would love to

hear from, from you, our listener.

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What, either, anything that you said on a

call that turned out to be not the right

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thing to say or that you've heard other

coaches saying or doing on calls, you

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think, oh no, you shouldn't be doing that.

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'cause I think this, that could lead

us to some, to some interesting,

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interesting discussions as to what

we should or shouldn't say to clients

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or that the right way to show up with

things or know how much we should hold

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back or how much we should, open up.

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all those kinds of things.

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It's good stuff to know and as a

coach, and could be very helpful, but

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I think we can probably things up.

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Angie: Sounds a plan.

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John: All right, we'll see you.