Coaching Packages: Finding the Right Fit
The Art and Strategy of Coaching Packages
In this episode, Angie and John discuss the challenges and considerations in designing coaching packages.
They highlight the importance of setting appropriate durations for coaching engagements to ensure client success.
Key topics include the feasibility of shorter packages, pricing strategies, the value of group vs. one-on-one coaching, and the importance of aligning package offerings with client needs and business goals.
They also share insights from their own coaching experiences, emphasizing the need for a solid framework, clear expectations, and understanding the client's objectives to deliver meaningful results.
Do you have any questions or feedback for John & Angie? Leave us a voicemail. It's free and if we like it we might just feature you on the show. Go to https://speakpipe.com/thecoachingclinicpodcast.com
00:00 Introduction and Client Complaint
01:24 The Importance of Coaching Packages
02:20 Challenges in Offering Shorter Packages
07:21 Group Coaching vs. One-on-One Coaching
19:25 Pricing and Value in Coaching
24:45 Final Thoughts and Listener Engagement
Transcript
Angie
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:Angie: John,
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:John: of my clients is complaining
that my package is too long.
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:Angie: I'm sorry.
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:I'm trying to be, I'm trying to
do this with a straight face.
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:Okay, but what is this?
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:Like a carry on film?
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:Yes, John, that does sound
like quite the pickle.
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:Oh,
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:John: Yeah, she wants a three month
package instead of six months.
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:Angie: well, do you offer
a three month package?
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:John: No, no one's going to
get results in three months.
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:Angie: And that means what?
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:John: Um, I just answered my own question.
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:Angie: Yes, you did.
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:Let's start the show.
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:John: Angie, I know that this isn't,
maybe one of the deepest issues that we've
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:ever been into, but it's an important one
because a lot of coaches, and I say, I was
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:saying insufficient as well, don't really
know how to package up the coaching,
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:like how long should you work with the
client for what's a reasonable amount
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:of time to expect results, or do you
have a process or framework that you're
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:going to work with your clients with that
actually takes a specific amount of time.
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:What are your thoughts?
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:Angie: You know, what's so funny is that
although you might identify this as not
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:one of our deepest session topics, I
would say to you that this was a really
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:tough challenge for me because I had
created content based on experience
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:and flow of what I thought deliverables
and outcomes could look like, right?
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:Does it cover the bases?
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:Is it complete?
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:Does it do what it's supposed to do?
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:And then, I've had people come and say,
Well, I don't know, I think the biggest
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:reason that I've had people that wanted
to do it, Shorter was because of money.
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:They thought if they got less
sessions that it could be less
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:expensive Hmm, so I did the job.
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:I have to I'm being honest.
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:I definitely was like, okay Well, let
me see how we can make this work for
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:you So I would say for about a year
in my coaching practice I was trying
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:to even say all right, let me make
a lower level package for people who
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:can't afford what the regular package
cost or my signature package costs.
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:And then it dawned on me, lower level.
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:Hmm.
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:I just said that, right?
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:So yeah there was a lot
of learning there for me.
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:John: I feel the same.
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:It very much felt like too many things
were on bits and pieces here, if I wasn't
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:really doing set amounts of sessions
with people, it's okay, well, I did
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:allow times where people would just pay
monthly , and that was primarily with
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:people who had been working with me a
long time who just wanted to stay in and
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:just say, okay you know, if it helps you
to stay in and you want to keep working
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:with me, let's keep you on a monthly.
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:So that was almost like a retainer
rather than anything else.
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:I don't mind it in that situation
But still I would rather have people
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:bought into a package so that I know
how long they're gonna be working with
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:me and I think Three months is never
really enough , for anyone to get
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:viable results in a particular area.
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:They can get started and they feel good,
but if you're having to have a renewal
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:conversation, regular check ins and a
renewal conversation within three months,
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:and they're looking through , if you
haven't clearly set expectations, and I
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:think even if you have, people maybe are
going to think that they can do far more
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:in three months than they really can.
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:So I don't think it's a great idea to
start working with someone and say We've
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:got three months together before we think
about where you're going to go from here I
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:would much rather have six months and that
is not working in a specific framework.
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:All right this month we're going to
do these bits and these ones because
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:certainly in those things I know
I probably could do a three month
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:package or if I could get someone to
the result that they come to me for in
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:three months I'm going to do a three
month package But for most part for
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:coaching, that's likely to go ongoing.
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:I'm going to do a six
month package with them.
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:And if they do want to renew, I'm
going to encourage them to go to a
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:12 month package because that's going
to be more cost effective for them.
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:And they already know that they
wanna work with me so that's
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:pretty much where I'm at with it.
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:Angie: I think what you just said,
I feel like, one of the things that
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:I've learned, the conversations I've
learned to have with people is, and
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:we've talked about this what is it
that you're looking to get out of this?
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:And I have had, clients that have come
in and have gotten, far more advanced.
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:More quickly during the process, but
that doesn't mean that I stop It means
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:that they're more advanced that I
need to still take them to a different
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:place right on a different level
and My experience taught me that not
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:that there's a set amount of time But
there is definitely you know a lot of
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:nuances that happen between the first
and third and fourth session a really
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:foundational To me, that's what I found.
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:My experience showed me that,
because I didn't just willy nilly
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:go, Oh, let me make my packages
in time, my packages by session.
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:So, if I'm selling a 12 session package,
I know what the framework is or where I'm
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:going with that because, you know, I don't
just show up and go, Hey, let's talk.
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:That's not generally how I do it.
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:Although there might be sessions where,
we go into a different direction.
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:And that's the beauty of coaching
is that we can flex as we need to.
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:But I always try to say to the person who
wants it for less money, well, do you feel
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:that I could deliver great value to you?
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:Because for me, it's very value based.
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:It's not financial value based.
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:It's What do you want to get out of
this right because and it's so funny as
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:many times It's turned out that those
people are the most stuck I don't know
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:what that correlation is, but that is
absolutely have been part of my findings
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:So the thing is that money and time it
is for some people I don't know where I
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:would find the time and I make the joke
and say show me your phone and I will
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:find you The time for six months, right?
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:I just know it.
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:I'm confident in that But I, they
need to understand what the value is,
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:that we're not just looking to rush
through this and what, you've made this
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:major transformation in three months.
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:Mm, I'm a little suspect if somebody
promised that to me, and I'm a
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:pretty high level self aware person.
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:If you came across to me and said, Hey,
, I can transform you in three months.
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:I would, calling it out.
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:John: I feel like it's almost easier
to figure these things out with
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:group programs than with one-to-one
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:Angie: Yeah.
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:Yeah.
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:John: I
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:Angie: mean, there's other alternative.
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:Yeah.
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:John: Yeah, do you, I mean, do you
have a group program at the moment that
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:you, yeah, so what would you generally
do with packaging that for people?
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:Yeah, I
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:Angie: for that, and that's
actually, it's pretty similar, except
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:that, it's in that group setting.
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:I feel like we get less
done per session that way.
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:So those can run a little bit longer.
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:So it doesn't fix or address the
time challenge that some people have.
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:And honestly, if somebody wants that,
I just tell them that I'm not the
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:right coach for them at this point.
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:My packages are based on
results and it's results driven.
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:If I bring in a group, well, I
have, I have a couple of group
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:coaching opportunities for
offerings that I've created.
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:And maybe they're a little more surface.
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:They're a little more superficial, right?
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:Because it's hard.
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:You can't do the deep, deep,
deep work when you're in a group.
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:It's just not the same.
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:So I do approach that a little
bit differently and that
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:will Affect cost for sure.
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:Sure, sure,
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:John: I don't have a group program of
my own currently, but when I have done
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:them, it has generally been six months.
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:Coaching alongside a
program that they're in.
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:Really similar stuff to a program that
I work in now and that have worked in
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:before that there'll be a, it'll be a six
month cycle generally of group coaching.
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:But what I find with that is
I'm more inclined to leverage
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:my time with group anyway.
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:And I actually prefer
delivering group coaching.
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:Sometimes the group will help
get the stuck people unstuck.
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:And also sometimes you'll end
up with people in the group
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:who take over a little bit.
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:So it isn't, I think it isn't, it
is important to make sure you manage
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:those groups well, but I also have a
bit of a sense of the people who are
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:jumping in and asking the questions and
sometimes taking over a bit on the calls.
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:They're doing that.
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:Everyone else has, everyone
has the opportunity to do that.
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:If they're not doing that, I'm going to
encourage them, I might say, if it gets
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:a bit ridiculous with someone, yeah,
okay, let's move, let's come back to
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:some of your questions, but we need to
give some other people a chance to share.
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:So I'm not going to let that go like
they can take the whole call, but I
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:also want other people on there to
think, why am I just sitting back and
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:letting everyone else lead the way?
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:Why aren't I sharing?
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:Why am I doing this?
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:So I'm going to be
encouraging them to step up.
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:I do feel that sometimes there is a
community space that does help people.
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:Yeah.
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:They may not want to share their most
intimate details and group calls are
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:generally not the sense of doing that.
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:The programs I do are not generally
the setting for doing that either.
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:So I don't really feel like I need
to worry about it in a sort of
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:therapy situation or are people
going to share their deepest.
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:They, I don't need them to, they don't
need to, but I do feel that there
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:is a lot of space for them to learn
from each other in the group and to
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:help each other through the program
as, as well as me helping them and
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:leading those calls from the front.
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:Angie: that you said that because
I think I do exactly the same
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:thing in my group coaching and
I tell people the truth, right?
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:Certainly I have a group coaching
program and it is essentially parallel
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:to one of the programs that I offer.
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:Listen, let's face it though, too.
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:Just for people who are listening
and saying, what do you mean?
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:We've been around for a minute.
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:We're not new to coaching and over a
period of years What you start to do
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:is realize that there are gaps that
show up right in A specific space and
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:you go I want to address that and i'm
going to create something around that
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:not everybody does that some people just
stick with this is all I do all day every
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:day You And this is the framework that
I use and I think that's great, right?
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:It's great to be able to do that I
did create for a period of time and it
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:really wasn't unsuccessful depending
on how you measure the success, but I
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:did do a It was like an introductory
program that was six sessions long and
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:what it did was It was specifically,
the framework was very specific
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:that it was all about foundational
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:work.
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:It was almost like, you know how we
have a discovery call, we get on the
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:call and say, Hey, are we a good fit?
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:What's this person need?
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:And, or do we want to work together?
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:Is it mutual?
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:All of that.
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:This was an extension of that, where
it was like, okay, if you want to
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:come into this introductory program,
Be aware that we're going to be
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:looking for foundational pieces.
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:We're looking at this as a
cultivation of what do you need?
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:And then we can decide, but
you're going to go through six
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:sessions with me to do that.
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:And then we'll get into actual
deep work based on that.
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:There was some success to that,
but I didn't like it because,
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:and again, it's not about me.
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:I'm the coach, but I just felt like
that diluted the impact that you
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:could have with somebody earlier on.
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:It just didn't work right again popular
and I guess if it was only just about
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:money for me I would have been like,
hey, i'll just do this all day long.
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:It's easy to sell.
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:It's less expensive It's not a lot of
deep work and I can be in and out but
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:that's not what i'm saying I see you
laughing over there, but you know what
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:John: No, I, I, Joel, I was actually
thinking about when, I was actually
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:thinking about when I first started as a
coach and I was really doing a sort of 12
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:session program with people, and that's
what they were buying as a coach for me.
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:That's what I learned.
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:That was.
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:Like back in the early 2000s, when
I first did my, when I did my very
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:first coaching course that was the
system or process that I learned.
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:That's what the other coaches
were doing with people and that's
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:what I went out and started doing.
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:So I knew it was that, but even then I
felt like, It was just this system of
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:okay, it's 12 sessions and then what?
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:12 sessions, then what?
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:Then I have to find new clients again.
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:And I was like, okay you know, yeah,
you want, I didn't know then that you
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:need to set up systems of referrals.
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:You need to do a whole
bunch of other stuff.
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:And that some of the people who
really like working with you and get
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:results are going to want to stay
working with you for longer than that.
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:And then perhaps you are going to
have to figure out what you're going
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:to do beyond the 12 sessions that
you might already have planned.
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:But I think we often don't think
about what the lifetime, potential
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:lifetime value of our clients
is or can be beyond that initial
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:package that they're coming in from.
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:And if we think about that,
then we probably can at least
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:be set up for, okay great.
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:Let's work with you for at least
this amount of time and help you
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:get somewhere, help you get to a
result, help you get to some outcomes.
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:And then at that point,
you make a decision that we
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:carry on working together.
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:Is there more for us to do?
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:That's probably the
best way to go about it.
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:And if it's not know, hopefully you
are delivering well enough, at least
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:that you say, okay, who else do you
know that should be working with me?
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:Angie: well and there's obviously
there's that i'm a really big
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:like my business structure You Is,
because I experienced exactly that.
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:Well, I did this, I sold it, now what?
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:Now what do I do with them?
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:So I created perpetuity, right?
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:I created that opportunity for there
to be always to be more, right?
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:I think we could take almost any topic,
let's say I'm talking about clarity.
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:Well, I don't know, I could probably
off the top of my head come up
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:with five specific sessions around
that in and of itself, or even
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:an entire framework around that.
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:So, what I realized was that what was,
what began as a foundational piece
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:started to, it was stackable, right?
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:Not necessarily cumulative, though.
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:Do you know what I mean?
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:Like some programs are like you
have to go through this program
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:before you go through that program.
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:I didn't necessarily want to do that
because some of my programs are higher
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:level for that C suite person, right?
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:But
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:most of them actually are, but I wanted
there to be a very convenient and natural
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:opportunity for there to be more, to.
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:Get more value.
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:So when somebody comes to me and
says I only have enough money for
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:this I'm, just not their coach.
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:That's the bottom line i'm not that
and not that I don't believe in
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:group coaching because obviously You
know what if you let's say you're
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:charging 500 a session, right?
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:If you're charging 500
or 300 a session with
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:somebody And that's what you
want to command per hour.
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:That's what you want to make per hour.
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:That's fine.
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:Well, then you need to find enough
people in a group to make that happen.
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:But is there again, when you're
doing the group coaching now,
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:what's the new expectation?
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:Now, how do you identify
growth spaces for people?
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:I think it gets a little bit lost.
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:I think group coaching has its
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:place, but in my business it's
basically more of a bonus to write a
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:particular topic and say, Hey, we're
going to use this as the example.
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:Again, we're talking about clarity
and maybe I see that it's like,
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:Ooh, this is really a tough spot.
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:Let's do a, session plus one, right?
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:Let's do another, when we're like coaching
on this piece and have that flexibility.
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:To bring people to some
level of enlightenment.
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:It's just I don't know anything
surface has never Worked for me.
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:It just didn't.
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:John: It's interesting, man.
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:I think you're more like you'd
like the one to one stuff.
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:You like being a one on one coach and
I'm more like, I like the group stuff.
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:I'm much more attracted to that and
I still enjoy some one on one stuff,
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:but I'm actually much more directed
and somewhat self directed towards
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:doing group coaching, delivering
that simply because of time leverage
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:and effectiveness, but also.
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:I get more energized by
delivering those programs.
300
:I feel like nice that I step into a
level of performance and coaching when
301
:doing that, because you have to manage
the energy of the group somewhat.
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:And it's all virtual as well,
which which makes life a lot
303
:easier in some ways as well.
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:But it's it's just different
styles and approaches.
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:Angie: but here's the thing though I don't
think that I enjoy the one on ones more.
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:I think for me if I'm doing a group
thing It's got to be a workshop.
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:I love work shopping and for me
Although there is coaching in that,
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:it is, it's just a bigger thing and
maybe we're just using different
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:terminology and it is the same thing.
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:I love doing workshops, but a workshop
is not, 45 minutes to an hour.
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:A workshop that I've created, my
workshops are some of them are a
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:day, some of them are a half a day.
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:Some of them are two days.
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:Some of them are four days.
315
:Okay, and it depends, again,
what I'm delivering and to
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:whom and what the outcome is.
317
:I have group coaching available that is 28
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:sessions long.
319
:It's a one year commitment.
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:And that's for a higher level, C
suite kind of leadership space.
321
:So I do like the group aspect.
322
:I think I just like the bigger groups.
323
:I think that's maybe just
me as a personal preference.
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:Yeah.
325
:Um,
326
:John: When I do, when I do more
group coaching stuff, it's either
327
:working more generally on things
like what you're working on, where
328
:you're at what stuff are you stuck
with, what questions do you have?
329
:So it's a little less formal whereas
the workshops and everything, that's
330
:going to be far more structured.
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:And there's gonna be often course
materials that they're gonna work
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:through by themselves as well.
333
:That's how I like to do it.
334
:If you are like in a position where
you're pretty new with your coaching
335
:business, come up with a simple
structure of, how many sessions, what's
336
:the minimum amount of sessions that
you wanna work with someone with?
337
:Do you feel that you could work with
a group rather than one, one that
338
:might be, allow you to leverage your
time more, might change some of the
339
:pricing a little bit, but but might.
340
:Allow you some other opportunities and
and think about what you want to be
341
:pricing that where you want pricing
it, because realistically, if you're in
342
:the sort of bracket of anything below
2, 000 you're in the sort of low end
343
:of of any sort of course, a program
along those sorts of lines and high
344
:end is really going to be looking like
probably eight to 10, 000 plus, really.
345
:Angie: Absolutely.
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:And there's an expectation of that.
347
:I have to say, if you are somebody
who's targeting a higher level
348
:audience, you should understand that
they, there is a belief in that space
349
:that is you get what you pay for.
350
:That's the truth.
351
:They're not looking for the
inexpensive necessarily.
352
:They're looking for the quality.
353
:And they're willing to
pay for that quality.
354
:So it's if you're newer, maybe
that is not yet your space.
355
:And I use that word yet.
356
:Like maybe it's not yet your space,
but I think what you said, John, is
357
:the key to it is that you have to
know what you're going to deliver.
358
:You have to know that first and
you need to stick to that and that
359
:doesn't mean that you don't shift
and change based on response.
360
:So if everybody that you're
targeting comes back and says,
361
:Whoa, that's just way too expensive.
362
:One of two things, either it is, or
you're just not focusing on the right,
363
:John: Yeah.
364
:Angie: right.
365
:That's the truth.
366
:If you're getting tons of yeses, Probably
found the right group and maybe you
367
:need to raise your prices the next
time a little bit and say that was too
368
:easy almost they all said yes and do
some research not for anything like
369
:let's not just start pricing things out
willy nilly I do some research what are
370
:people that coach in the way that you
coach literally what are they charging
371
:for their programs do some spade work
figure that out so you could see what
372
:at least the market in that space would
bear You don't just make up numbers.
373
:Yes.
374
:John: a often refer to our sing episode.
375
:And for those who haven't, go
back and listen to it, it's it's
376
:gonna be a high value for you.
377
:It is important to know who you're
targeting your services to the amount
378
:of people I've worked with over the
years who want to help a particular
379
:group of people who have no target.
380
:F in money to be able to pay for the
services that you want to offer them.
381
:Well, that's all nice,
but that's not a business.
382
:It's a charity and, we've said this on
the show before, but this is a business.
383
:Serve your business first, then there
may be space for the people that you
384
:want to help a bit more pro bono.
385
:But, You have to think about this as
a business and it has to operate as a
386
:business, which means you need to go and
maybe do a bit of research, do a bit of
387
:product checking, make sure that what
your product offers looks good to the
388
:market and that the market has the need
and the means to pay for your services.
389
:Otherwise, otherwise you're going
to find that it's going to be
390
:very frustrating in the long run.
391
:And that's not what
392
:Angie: Listen, you
393
:know what?
394
:This is so funny.
395
:I don't know why this popped
into my head of all things.
396
:Cause you know, I'm very visual
and I make up little stories in
397
:my head as I talk about things.
398
:But like, imagine doing something
that is appear, appears to
399
:be elective, like a surgery.
400
:You're going to a surgeon and
you want to have some type of
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:augmentation done to yourself, right?
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:Whether it's your face, your eyes,
something to your appearance.
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:And.
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:You're going to you want the best, right?
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:This is pretty important.
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:I want somebody who knows what they're
doing and has a good reputation.
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:And this is their, but this is what
they focus on all day, every day.
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:And they walk in and you go,
okay, so how much is this?
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:And they say it's 20, it's 15, 000.
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:You cannot say to them, but I
only want to pay a thousand.
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:You can say it, but they're going
to be like I am not the surgeon
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:for you because this is based on my
experience or based on X, Y, and Z.
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:This is what I get paid.
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:They're not going to go, oh, okay, Mr.
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:John, okay, we'll let you pay a
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:thousand dollars.
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:That makes sense.
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:Oh no, there's a value being
delivered and unfortunately I think
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:when people don't understand the
potential value of their outcomes.
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:Okay in coaching, it's very
hard for them to say Okay, i'm
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:gonna make this commitment.
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:They'll find money, you
know for ancillaries.
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:I want the 300 lipstick Really,
but you won't pay 300 for something
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:that's gonna really better your life.
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:That's really my mentality around it
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:But
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:John: Yeah.
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:There has to be, there
has to be pain around it.
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:And you have to know
that you can help them.
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:No, no pain, no sail.
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:That, that.
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:That's life and yeah, as harsh
as it may be, that is a reality.
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:Yes I don't think I would want to spend
a thousand bucks on plastic surgery.
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:I I think the results might be
worse than what you already see.
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:Yeah, I would find the 15, 000.
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:I don't know what I
want done first though.
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:Maybe my boobs.
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:I have a, having a think about it
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:Angie: Oh my goodness.
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:Well, we can have that conversation.
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:John: That's a different,
a very different podcast
442
:Angie: very different podcast.
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:John: Hello, maybe you have thoughts
around packaging your deals, or maybe
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:you have some coaching questions.
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:Maybe there are things that you're curious
about, or that you've had some tricky
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:situations with clients that you would
like to get some other coaching eyes
447
:on, some coaching experts, experienced
coaches to get some feedback on.
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:Leave us a voicemail.
449
:You can go to speakpipe.
450
:com forward slash the
coaching clinic podcast.
451
:That's speakpipe.
452
:com forward slash the
coaching clinic podcast.
453
:You can leave us a voice message
and if we like it, we might
454
:just feature it on the show.
455
:Angie: Well, yeah,
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:we'd love to do that.
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:So bring it on everybody.
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:Come
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:John: we'd love to do that.
460
:Leave us a voicemail.
461
:So we look forward to hearing from you
and we'll be back again with another
462
:episode of the coaching clinic very soon.
463
:See ya.
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:Angie: Bye bye.