Friendship or Coaching: Striking the Right Balance
Friendship or Coaching: Striking the Right Balance
In this episode, the discussion revolves around the complexities and nuances of the coaching relationship, especially concerning the boundary between being a coach and a friend. The conversation touches on how coaches, driven by a desire to please and be liked, might risk crossing into the friend zone, potentially compromising the effectiveness of the coaching process.
Personal anecdotes illustrate situations where too much empathy or niceness failed to contribute to a client's growth, highlighting the importance of tough love, accountability, and direct feedback in coaching.
The hosts argue against coaching friends or family, emphasizing the necessity for a detached professional relationship to maintain the client's growth and transformation. The dialogue also covers the responsibilities of a coach in establishing clear roles and expectations from the outset, ensuring clients are accountable to themselves rather than seeking approval or fear of disappointing their coach.
The episode concludes with a forward look into discussing the business aspects of coaching in future conversations.
00:00 Introduction and the Question of Coaching Friends
01:05 The Dangers of Crossing the Line from Coach to Friend
03:15 Personal Experiences with Coaching and the Need for Tough Love
05:12 The Importance of Client Accountability and Coach's Role
10:41 The Paradox of Coaching and the Goal of Self-Sufficiency
18:09 The Challenges of Coaching Friends and Family
21:53 Conclusion and Preview of Next Episode
Transcript
John,
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:so here's a question for you.
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:Should coaches be friends
with their clients?
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:Well,
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:John: question of tough
love or soft glove.
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:We could also ask
whether friends should be
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:coaching clients.
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:Angie: I guess my answer to that is
that I'd be happy to coach you, John.
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:John: Um, thanks, . let's start the show.
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:See
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:Angie: Okay.
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:So in all seriousness,
let's really think about
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:this.
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:do you think that sometimes coaches
Want so badly for a session to go well
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:that they step out of the coaching
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:Space and into the
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:friend space.
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:What are your
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:thoughts on that?
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:John: Oh, gosh my thoughts are that
coaches are often people pleasers
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:is very naturally the way that we
go into things of coaches are people
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:who want to work with other people.
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:They want to help.
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:They want to make a difference and
they want to be liked by their clients.
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:And so that I think is the main issue as
far as, as far as I've encountered it.
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:And I think that can cause people to
maybe step away from actually having
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:the level of detachment that they
need as a coach and just going into
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:a session with the wrong energy.
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:if your focus is just on it being good.
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:You are already putting pressure
on yourself at that point for it
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:to be good and therefore there is
already a risk that it's not going
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:to be or something is gonna derail
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:you.
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:Angie: So yeah, and I think that there's
I think that there's two pieces maybe
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:more to this but off the top of my head
The first thing that I think of is what
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:you just said exactly that we want so
badly for this to work or for there
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:to be some value and to be liked and
people pleased that that's one piece.
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:But I also feel like, when we're
working with a client for a period
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:of time, familiarity steps in, right?
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:And that can actually take a, what may
be started out as a super professional
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:relationship into, Hey, how are the kids?
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:What's going on?
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:Oh, so and so didn't
get accepted to college.
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:Oh.
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:And instead of it being a coaching
session, it becomes One of, I, I don't
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:want to say empathy because we should
have empathy, but if the conversation I
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:feel like shifts and it's Oh, well, again,
so again I'm actually going on and on,
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:We start to
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:maybe share too much of
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:ourselves.
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:John: I get that.
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:But I think coaching relationships
can start in the wrong way as well.
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:So I think you're absolutely right.
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:Let me share with you my very first
experience of hiring a professional coach.
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:A really, really lovely lady.
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:I'm not going to mention her name.
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:I'm not even sure if she's still with us.
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:It was a long time ago.
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:Hopefully she is, but such a lovely
lady, a very experienced has said she'd
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:been coaching for quite a long time
When I encountered her and I was excited
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:that actually for the first time in
my life, I was investing in myself, my
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:personal development, and I'd hired a
coach and I knew how important that was.
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:And the coaching just didn't help me.
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:And the problem was she was too nice.
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:And for me, that just wasn't working,
I need the tough love, I need a little
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:bit of accountability, maybe a lot, and
I need a bit of direct feedback, which
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:I just wasn't getting, everything was
super lovely and nice, and, oh well, I
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:haven't done my actions like I said I
was gonna do, oh that's no problem, it's
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:like, well actually no, it kind of is.
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:And so, that's where, that's what
we ended up getting to, of my first
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:experience of, Having a professional
coach, I felt did not go that well.
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:And so when I look back on it now,
I feel that that was part of it.
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:She was being too nice to me.
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:She was being too much of a friend
instead of actually being my coach.
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:And so now, my coaches tend to be a
lot more direct, maybe a bit, you know,
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:they care, but there's tough love and
they're not just telling me what I want
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:to hear or letting me off the hook for
stuff that I don't want to be let off the
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:hook for.
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:Angie: It's so kind of
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:like me is what you're
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:saying.
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:John: Yeah, just, that's, that's
why you make such a good coach.
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:And that's one of the, that's one
of the first things that myself
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:and I think pretty much all of
us on our team recognized in you.
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:It's like, no one's getting
off the hook with you.
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:Angie: Yeah.
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:And there's even balance there as well.
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:But I think that the first piece
that we're pointing to is that
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:when you start off a relationship
with a client, there needs to be an
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:understanding of who sits in what seat.
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:And we're not there to be their friends,
we're not there to, okay, I'm saying
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:this, be nice, we can be kind, right, but
we're not there for them to go, oh my
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:goodness, she's the nicest person I've
ever met, and I just love, if they love
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:me too much from the get go, I literally
question what I'm not doing right in a
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:session, and it doesn't really happen
anymore, but I would say the same as you,
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:My very first coaching client that was
actually in a one on one, they paid me.
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:And I remember my nerves just being
so like, I don't know, amped up.
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:It wasn't the first time that
I ever that I coached somebody.
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:And when I hung up from that call.
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:I remember thinking, ugh,
they liked me too much.
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:They were like, oh my goodness,
Angie, you were so amazing.
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:And I thought, what did I do wrong?
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:And I think I immediately went into the
niceties and tell me about all these other
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:things and shared even a little bit about
my life, which I don't think is a coach
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:is a bad thing, if it is experiential and
relevant but that's, another piece to it.
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:So, I've learned to be more of, I know
what you're gonna say, but more of
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:who I really am, which is, you know
what, I can be a little bit tough,
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:I don't let people get away with the
things that I know can move them.
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:John: Yeah.
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:I have a diplomatic approach.
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:I mean, we've talked about it.
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:We have our different styles, but I feel
that I'm still good at holding people
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:accountable because one of the things
I think is most important in coaching
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:is holding people's feet to the fire.
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:If you're not challenging your
clients, they're not growing.
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:And it's about helping them to
challenge themselves as well, for sure.
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:But you know, you, you need to be the
person as a coach who is guiding that
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:journey and challenging them to step up
and perform, not just saying, Oh, it's
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:okay, but you didn't get anything done
that you haven't actually taken any
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:action since we started working together.
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:That is not, that's not okay.
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:Something, something is wrong there.
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:And it has to be addressed.
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:Now I tend to address that in more
of a, okay, look, this isn't for you
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:to beat yourself up about it, but
this is something we should look at.
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:Why didn't, why didn't this happen?
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:What's what could you
have done differently?
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:We're going to pull things apart
and get into that, but I'm not
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:going to let you off the hook.
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:If you haven't done what you said
you're going to do, I want to know
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:and I'm going to ask you to hold
yourself accountable for that.
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:Not so that I can fly over because most
of my clients are overseas, not so I can
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:fly over to you and actually give, give
you a physical boot up the backside.
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:Although sometimes I've wanted to do
that, but so that I can encourage
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:you and help you get yourself on
track and just know, all right,
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:look, if I didn't do my actions.
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:I should still show up to my coaching
call but I know that I'm going to
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:have to look into why so that I can
make myself better because of it, not
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:so that I can feel bad that I didn't
get done what I'm supposed to do.
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:Angie: I think That's important though.
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:Yeah.
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:You know what though, John?
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:Because what I don't like too though,
and this is for me an indicator.
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:That maybe there's a little too much
going on there, meaning when a client
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:comes to me and it does still happen and
they say, Oh, Angie, you're not going
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:to like this, or I didn't want to tell
you, or, and I'm like, wait a second.
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:Whoa, whoa, whoa.
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:I'm not your mama.
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:Right?
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:I'm not here to tell you
you're right or you're wrong.
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:I'm here to help guide you, right?
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:I'm the pace car, right?
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:So I'm here to guide you
toward your growth, right?
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:I'm not necessarily in front of
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:you pulling you.
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:Maybe sometimes.
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:And maybe sometimes I'm
behind you and I'm pushing.
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:And maybe sometimes I'm right
alongside of you and going, okay
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:let's take this journey together.
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:But when somebody comes to
me and says, Oh, Angie, and
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:they're answering me like that.
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:I cringe and go, Ooh, what happened that
they feel that level of accountability
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:With me.
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:That doesn't work.
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:That tells me that there's something
in the relationship that I, as the
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:coach, need to shift and re examine.
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:Now, obviously, if I'm at the end of
that coaching, round of coaching with
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:them or something, it might be a little
difficult to reframe, but that is a key
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:indicator to me that, some people might
take that as, well, they respect you.
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:I have a coach.
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:Coach said, I respect, maybe
that means they respect you.
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:And I said, well, That's great, but when
they're acting almost like child like,
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:right, like, I didn't do good
enough, that tells me, again, I need
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:to take a closer look at what the
dynamic of those sessions have been
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:so that I can adjust accordingly.
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:And I don't even have to say, it's not
like I'm going to say to the client.
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:I don't like that you're feeling this
kind of accountability toward me.
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:That's not it.
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:I take the sessions or I take the
dynamic and I shift it in a way
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:so that they're being accountable
to themselves more than me.
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:Because when I'm gone when I'm not in
their lives anymore, then what happens?
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:That's not good coaching.
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:It needs to last beyond our relationship.
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:That's what coaching for me is.
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:So yeah.
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:that's a key indicator for me.
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:John: Yeah.
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:There, there's a paradox in coaching.
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:I feel that that we perhaps should
take an episode to address, but the
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:paradox is that at some point your
clients shouldn't need you anymore.
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:This isn't I hate to
say this, but I have to.
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:It isn't psychotherapy.
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:It isn't something that
you should be in forever.
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:And even psychotherapy is not
something you should be in forever.
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:Because coaching should be solution
focused and it should be helping
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:you to get yourself on track.
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:A good coach, and this is the paradox,
a good coach should have you feeling,
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:I did this, I made this happen, I did
this, not my coach did this, my coach
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:made this happen, no, I did this.
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:And that's the paradox, it's like, if
a coach has done their job really well,
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:the client feels that they did this.
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:Hopefully they also recognize
and appreciate my coach supported
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:me and helped me make that
happen, but ultimately, I did it.
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:Angie: I think it really needs
to fall back onto the individual.
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:It's You know, I love my sports
analogies, it's like if I'm the coach
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:of a team I'm not getting out there
and teaching them how to swing a bat.
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:I'm not swinging the bat for them.
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:I might show them, hey, choke up,
do this, use a donut, all the things
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:that probably nobody listening knows
what I'm talking about, but but I
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:shouldn't be taking the swing for them.
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:Right?
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:You know, that's, I think, something
that does happen when you cross over from
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:that, we're not responsible for them.
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:That's another mistake I think
that coaches make, it's that,
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:that we feel a responsibility to.
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:Yeah.
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:Get more out of them, move them forward
fast, like whatever the thoughts are
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:in our own head, and I think that's
another mistake that we can make as
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:coaches that prevents that growth
because it creates more of like a
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:codependent relationship
rather than a growth minded.
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:John: Absolutely.
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:And that, that can be part of the problem.
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:And one of the reasons why I tend to
frame up things with people, if I'm going
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:to be working with them for a while or
potentially going to be working with them
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:for a while, I want to know in the first
session, how do you like to be coached?
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:Do you want lots of encouragement
and supportiveness, or are you
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:looking to be challenged here?
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:Are you looking to Have a bit of real
talk and get some direct feedback
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:that's going to help you to grow.
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:That's always going to come from a
place of love and caring but sometimes
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:might not be what you want to hear.
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:Pretty much every time
they want the latter.
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:People do not want coaching
that's just going to tell them
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:nice things and support them.
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:Sometimes it does happen.
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:Sometimes they do.
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:That's no fun as a coach, if
you want to do that, great.
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:If that's the kind of coaching
you're offering, great.
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:But just know that it's not really
challenging people and not holding
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:anyone's feet to the fire to do that.
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:I just feel that as coaches,
we have a responsibility
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:to help our clients to grow, but I
understand that there's a fine line.
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:Maybe you'd agree with this, but there's
a fine line between tough love and getting
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:a bit mean and personal with your clients.
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:But I think people sometimes don't
know how to tread that water.
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:Angie: I've had some really
difficult conversations with clients.
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:So, and it's not a fault thing.
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:It's also getting to know your client
and the person who doesn't show
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:up and I've had the conversation.
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:I'd say, okay, wait a minute.
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:And I'll just use you as the example.
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:I might say, John, let me just
take a pause here for a minute.
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:I need to ask you a really
clarifying question.
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:And before you answer, I want you
to take a minute and just think
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:about the answer.
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:What
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:are you doing here?
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:Why are
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:you in coaching?
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:John: you.
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:Angie: I say it just like that.
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:So they know that there's
meaning behind it, but I'm not
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:guiding them toward an answer.
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:I'm not saying, is it this,
is it this, is it this?
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:Because if they're not showing up,
if they're not being accountable and
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:it's like an ongoing, I have to circle
back and figure out or regage their
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:necessity to coaching because they
may not be essentially, they just
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:may not be good coaching candidates
and if they come back and they say,
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:well, I want all the things that I
already told you, I want betterment.
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:My answer is tell me what
that looks like for you.
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:When you envision that, what
does that really mean for you?
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:Because as your coach, I'm feeling that
we're still talking about the same thing.
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:You're going to get the papers decluttered
and whatever it is, because I really
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:literally have people who cannot function
because they have 3, 000 magazines
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:in their apartment or their flat.
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:There are times when as a coach, if you
realize you're making it too easy for them
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:because they're not making movement, you
need to maybe have that hard conversation
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:that splashes a little cold water.
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:We don't want to throw them
into like, you're not doing
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:the polar bear plunge, right?
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:We don't want that, but splash a little
cold water on them to say, wait a minute.
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:What am I doing here?
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:And do I still really want this
does this still matter for me?
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:John: I like that.
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:I like that.
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:Yeah.
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:I think we, we will have some talks in the
future about how to deliver maybe a bit
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:more tough love style coaching, uh, maybe
be a little more provocative with your
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:clients in a way that is gonna be healthy
and relationship compatible with them.
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:But I would say, if this is something
that's new to you and you're feeling
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:that you want to explore that
ask permission from your clients.
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:Hey, look, I want to try and
help you more accountable here.
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:Maybe get a little more
direct with the feedback.
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:Are you okay with that?
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:Get permission from them.
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:And then you're always good.
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:You can have those more authentic
conversations, but if your coaching is
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:just nice, I think the worry is that your
clients aren't going to stay with you.
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:Well, Guess what?
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:They're not going to stay with you
if they're not seeing results either.
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:In fact, they're going to feel
like they've wasted their money.
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:So, either way, you're on a losing
streak if you don't address this.
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:And actually get into a position
where the people who are going
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:to succeed are going to succeed,
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:and the people who aren't,
they're going to drop away.
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:And they should do.
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:It doesn't mean you failed as a coach.
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:It means they weren't the
right clients for you.
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:You're
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:Angie: yeah I think that's I've really I
think that's a tough space for a lot of
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:coaches to put them into because I believe
that most coaches believe That they can,
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:I don't want to say fix, because I don't
fix things, but I think some coaches feel
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:like they're going to fix, or they can
help change anybody, and that's not true.
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:That's a fallacy.
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:And the other thing is too we talked
about it for a second earlier.
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:Do we ever bring ourselves
into a coaching session?
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:And I do feel like the minute somebody
breaks the ice on that, sometimes it
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:gets to be easier and easier and easier.
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:So I did do it once.
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:I had a, I did have a client who came
to the session, probably shouldn't
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:have, they had just lost a parent
and I had just lost a parent.
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:so when they were a mess in the session, I
really felt I needed to meet them in that
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:moment and not go, well, all right we're
going to push through this and we're just
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:going to coach on your business today.
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:That wouldn't have been fair.
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:And I did share I really understand.
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:I just lost my mom.
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:I understand how you're feeling,
but I made sure that when we came
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:into that next session, it was how
are you, are you feeling well?
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:And it was back to business.
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:John: Yeah.
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:There, there is this temptation always
that, that, that's part of empathizing.
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:If you've had similar experiences
to tell them about yours.
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:I don't, that, that's always helpful.
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:If your experiences is an example
of what not to do or what to do.
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:Then maybe you can bring that in
but I think right it's dangerous.
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:You need to have a somewhat distance
position to be able to be truly effective
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:as a coach, which I think is one of the
reasons why, when someone is your client
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:actively your client You can't really be
friends with them because you don't have
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:a level of detachment if that's the case.
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:Which also answers the question of Should
you coach your friends or your family?
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:and I have done it.
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:I have one time done it well, but it
was only with a friend who begged me
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:to coach her and totally respected me
as a coach and someone who was able
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:to make that distinction between me
as their friend and me as their coach.
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:I think that's the only way I wouldn't
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:recommend it.
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:It's still much better.
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:My problem with it was I already
have ideas and images about you in
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:my head that may not be fair to you.
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:Uh, so I don't necessarily see your
fullest potential without baggage.
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:I, I have baggage with you good and bad,
and that's not helping you as a coach.
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:So I would definitely not
recommend working with somebody
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:who is a friend or family member
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:because
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:of those reasons.
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:Angie: Absolutely.
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:I think if we asked 25 other people,
we'd get variations of the answer.
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:I don't think it's a great idea.
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:I don't think it's horrible to go
in and maybe workshop and, because
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:depending on how your business is built
for that one on one coaching, that
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:responsibility, I think it's virtually
impossible to forget what you know.
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:About each other and I think it gets
harder to hold them accountable There's
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:a lot of things that come into play
and I really believe that make the
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:referral I'm not the person for you, but
I definitely have somebody that would
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:be a great match for you in terms of
coaching I don't need to be your coach
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:John: Yeah.
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:Angie: Maybe one or two generations I have
coached for children of friends, okay?
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:And I don't mean children
that ten, I mean, children in
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:their twenties, late teens.
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:And that has been fine, right?
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:But I have made sure that everybody
understands, mom and dad that hired me
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:I'm not coming to you with information.
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:And I also make sure that that
client that, that child of the friend
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:understands that anything that they tell
me beyond, the same rules for anybody.
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:If I think you're gonna hurt
yourself, I'm making a phone call.
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:Do you know what I mean?
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:But that's the norm.
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:Making sure they understand
that whatever goes on between us
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:in our sessions is between us.
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:Period.
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:That I'm not running back.
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:And I'm establishing that trust.
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:But honestly, even that at first
was a little bit Wonky, but I think
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:one or two degrees away from, or
generations away from, a friend
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:is not necessarily a bad idea.
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:John: So there can be exceptions
to every rule of course.
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:But we say, as we are saying, I
think you both agree generally, for
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:the most part it is not a good idea
to coach people that you know well.
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:I feel that we've probably
answered that question.
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:Is there anything else that
you want to say on this topic?
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:Angie: No, I think we hit the
two biggest pieces, is when you
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:have a client for a long time.
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:I'm not allowing that familiarity to
take precedence over the work being done.
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:We should be working just as hard in the
25th session, I hope that happens for
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:you by the way as we did in the first,
second, and third where we're really
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:starting to get to know them and to date.
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:That shouldn't change.
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:John: It may be a good idea to check
in with clients who you've been working
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:with for a long time and see how
that relationship is right now.
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:Is it in a healthy place where they're
still being challenged and still
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:getting value from the coaching?
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:It is a danger in long term
coaching relationships.
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:I've experienced it and had
it with my own clients as well.
405
:It's all about boundaries.
406
:Next time we're going to be talking about
some of the business side of coaching,
407
:which is going to be fun and exciting.
408
:Are you looking forward to that, Angie?
409
:Angie: course I am.
410
:John: Excellent.
411
:Well, I hope you'll join us too for that.
412
:we'll be back next week.
413
:Same time, same place.
414
:Angie: bye.
415
:bye.