Diving Deeper With Long Term Clients

John: 00:00:00

Angie,

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Angie: John

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John: do you think of

yourself as a digger?

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Angie: of you, of course.

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I absolutely dig you.

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John: Of course you do.

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But that's not where I'm

think heading with this.

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So we know how important it's to deep

dive with clients, but how do you

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keep that going with someone who's

a bit more long term as a client?

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Angie: Oh, in the sessions.

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That, my dear, is probably a

great topic for today's episode.

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John: Yeah, I agree.

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Shall we do it?

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Angie: Absolutely.

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Let's dig into this.

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John: So what happens when you've had

someone as a client for a long time

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and you want to make sure that you keep

going, doing the deep work with them?

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Angie: Yeah, I think it's something that

a lot of coaches don't really think about.

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If you're newer to coaching, you're

not even worried about that yet.

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It hasn't even shown up on your radar.

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But for me as an experienced coach,

I had clients that I've worked with

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for years and years, and I think

that it's just that idea, right?

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Once you get past the surface

the superficial things, and that

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could take, so many sessions.

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It's not oh, we got past

that in session one.

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I think that a lot of people

struggle to still find the nuggets

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because that's what they become.

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You, I think you start out with

these bigger rocks, boulders even

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maybe, but once you're you've been

doing it for a minute it becomes, oh

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wait, where are we going with this?

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How do we keep going?

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How do we keep bringing that?

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John: Yeah I feel like it's easier in

some ways to do the deep dives with

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a longer running client unless you've

fallen into bad habits where you

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haven't been doing that or where you've

maybe had a long period of not doing

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that and perhaps it has fallen into,

okay, don't say this to judge anyone.

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'cause I think I've done it

myself, almost certain I have.

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Angie: Sure.

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John: But it ends up falling into more

conversational, almost like they're paying

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to have a phone call with a friend each

week, which if that's what they want

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to get out of it, then no, no problem.

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But it's probably not, we couldn't

really call that coaching.

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It's more maybe emotional support,

perhaps even counseling to that degree.

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Or paid a paid

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friendship, which isn't really what

we're, isn't really what we're about.

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But in, for the most part, you've already

done the work on getting deep with them.

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You should be easier to take them

to those places because the trust

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is already there and to go deeper.

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You haven't been doing those things,

it's probably better to approach it

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from the way you would with a new

client to start reestablishing that.

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The same methodologies to get you back

into that habit of being able to go deeper

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with them and challenge them a bit more.

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Angie: Yeah, I think that's a great idea.

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I think the whole thing is in order to

be able to do it, I think you have to be

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much more reflective on your sessions.

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And I'm not saying that you

shouldn't be doing that from the

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beginning, but I feel like in the

beginning, naturally and organically.

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More information is there for

you to decipher and go through

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and dig into and all of that.

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But I think in terms of approach and

creating a skill set or a habit even, you

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really do you have to be able to evaluate

and ask yourself to what you just said.

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Was this just a friendly conversation?

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Or was I really still digging with them

because I know I, I absolutely know

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several people who are coaches who just

love that it's a comfortable, and we

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talked about this very recently, but it,

they love the comfort of the longevity,

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the familiarity of the relationship.

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And sometimes you get lost in that.

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You forget oh.

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You know what?

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I'm really supposed to

be challenging them.

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How do I do that?

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So I think the first thing is to

always be self-reflective, right?

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As a coach, you're, you should

be able to evaluate the session.

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Looked at it, but you also need to

evaluate yourself and say, what did I

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really do great in this session today?

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Or where could I have gone

deeper when this came up?

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You have to do that as a coach.

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You cannot just go, all right, check

that box, session number 38, done.

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And if you're lucky enough to still

be working with somebody, right?

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You, that's so I think for me, that's

the first step is to do that evaluation.

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Of the session and of you as a

coach, some self-reflection there.

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Why are you laughing?

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John: I just wanna tell you something

about, there, there was a client I

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had for, at, at least 10 years as

a client, which is an exceptionally

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long time to have a client for not

the only client that I've had for

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that sort of time period as well.

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But pretty much every session was just

him telling me what he's been up to.

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Angie: Okay.

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John: Yeah, so it really was the case.

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So it wasn't like that.

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That's just how we run the sessions.

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It was me saying to him early on.

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What do you actually want

to get outta these sessions?

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His words to me were I was told

I need to have a coach to be

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successful, so you're my coach.

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Okay, but that's really, we need to

actually do some coaching as well.

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And he's look, all I really want to do

is come in and check, check in with you,

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tell you open up to and make my plans

and make my commitments and that's it.

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I'm like, okay, it's super easy, but.

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I could honestly say we never

went deep on those calls.

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We never went deep about anything,

but that's what he wanted.

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And to, to a degree I'm in my head is

if that's what you are paying for and

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that's what you really want to get and

you are finding some value to this.

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Okay.

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It's not really what I want

to be doing as a coach.

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Not one of my favorite coaching

experiences, as it were, but super easy.

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And it was like, all right, I'll

just, yeah, I'll take your money.

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But it's probably not what we want.

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Angie: I

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was, we

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John: not what we want won.

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Angie: I'll take your money.

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John: It is probably not what you

really want in a coaching relationship.

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It's not that fulfilling for you

as coaching work even if, even if

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they're paying you for the privilege.

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It was just very easy to do that and

it's if I'd have said, I don't really

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wanna coach like that, he would've

just been assigned to another coach.

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Angie: Yeah.

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to your

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John: it is with sometimes

in the coaching companies.

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Angie: it definitely is.

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And to John's point on that

though, just by the way.

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You know what?

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Sometimes when you get on with a client,

they wanna give you the rundown they want

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to because that's their brain dump, right?

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So sometimes they get on and I

will allow, Hey, how was your week?

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What went on this week?

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I will ask that question.

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Not because I'm like, Hey, how are you?

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Like, how's the kitten?

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Maybe, sorry if they have

like animals in somebody.

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I actually had somebody recently

whose animal got sick, and

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I'm like, how's the property?

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And so of course they checked in.

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But point that I'm making is, you

wanna be able to do that, give them

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an opportunity to let that stuff

go because there's nuggets in it.

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But I also put parameters,

I do not let that go on for

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more than about five minutes.

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And then I might say, okay, so John,

let me ask you, and then, maybe

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piggyback from something that came

up in a previous session, or, your

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wife irked you or you were sick.

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How's your energy?

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What are you doing?

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It's not just how are you, it's, oh,

so you were really sick with the flu.

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What are you doing for self-care?

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You have to be able as a coach to

take almost any situation and inject.

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Coaching into it, but of course not

to the point of nauseam either where

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somebody's are you like, hello?

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I am still human.

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But I think the other differentiation

is I think there needs to be patience

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because I think in the beginning

of the relationship, as long as

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you're not just there to take their

money, like John, no one's tea.

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I'm only kidding.

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I am only kidding.

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That will be a deleted part of this.

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I'm sure that will not make it to

air, however, I'm just kidding.

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But the point is.

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I think that in the beginning there's

naturally so much more that you

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don't have to do the search, but

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There's a lot there.

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But as you progress it, it gets

like how do I wanna articulate this?

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You have to be patient as a coach

as well, and understand that as time

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progresses and the deeper you go,

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you're not always going to find the

nuggets as easily, which is why it's

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so important to keep digging, right?

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So you may not have in the

beginning they may have these

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aha moments every, every session.

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Maybe great for you if that

happens, but I'm not saying

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that's true.

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That

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John: I would,

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Angie: what.

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John: yeah, I would never set up

a coaching relationship now that

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that would allow that to go on.

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This is very much coaching clients being

assigned to your situation, and you pretty

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much have to give them what they want.

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But for my own business, for my own

clients, that's not gonna happen.

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Because they're gonna be selected and

and we're gonna have done discovery

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before, before we ever get to that point.

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But when you've been even, and then

when you've been working with someone

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a bunch of times, one of the things

that does make it easier, I think, is

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that it's easier to challenge because

they're, they expect it of you and

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the permission's become implicit.

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You probably do reach a point where

you don't, where you don't need to

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keep asking for permission to, to

challenge them or call them out.

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You can just do it and

be comfortable with it.

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Angie: Oh yeah.

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Listen, when you and I have conversations

right, and we, John and I have certainly

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developed a friendship and a relationship

and an understanding of each other.

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Then sometimes at left field, he'd be

like what are you gonna do about that?

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And I'm like, you're coaching me.

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So it is that familiarity where

you sometimes as the client, they

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don't expect it to, that's it's

not, they don't realize it's coming.

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But even as a friend, John still keeps

that mindset of who he is, right?

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And we'll come out and

say hey, what about this?

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And call me out and say, oh, I

didn't even really think about that.

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Because it's just naturally who he is.

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But as a coach, if you're, if you do have

the benefit of that relationship and that

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being familiar, you should absolutely

be more in tune to them so that you can

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listen for what's also not being said.

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I think that's another great

opportunity with longevity is

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because you become familiar enough.

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You can say, wait a minute,

something is missing here.

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Let me go to that.

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'cause we didn't even talk about it, but

I feel like it's hiding here somewhere.

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So you actually have to be more aware too.

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You have to be much more in

tune to get to that point.

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John: I think so, and I think you also

need to know whether they have complete

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life areas that they really don't pay or

seem to pay attention to, or don't want

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to touch on in the coaching sessions.

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As coaches, we should pretty well

know our wheel of life, right?

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We know what the main categories

are for working with clients.

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The main life areas are

in life coaching at least.

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And even if we're a business

coach, we prob we probably

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should know what they are.

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Because coaching does have.

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All these holistic elements to it.

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If there's a really key element of

somebody's life that they're just

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not even willing to bring up, or you

try and su subtlely bring it up and

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they try and steer the conversation

away, you do have to gauge whether

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it is your job to dig deeper on that.

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And probably do need to ask, is

this something you just don't

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want to talk about with me?

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Or is there something going on here

that maybe we should talk about?

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Angie: yeah.

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Listen, I think that's really important

too, is it's, we're talking about your

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leadership or we're talking about.

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You know how you behave at

home or whatever, and you do.

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As a coach, you have to be able

to have some kind of bird's eye

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viewpoint of them very early on.

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I don't know if you do this, John, but I

do ask them about family and things like,

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so tell me a little bit about you now.

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Tell me, let's be personal

for a good 15 minutes.

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Are you married, divorced?

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Children, where do you live?

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And I have their addresses,

obviously, if their clients

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already, but, so tell me about that.

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And I even ask them sometimes

about their home, like, how do

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you like, feel about your home?

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Do you love and again, sounds

a little what do you care?

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I'm here for leadership.

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What do you care about my house?

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But I look to gain as much of a

visualization of their entire world.

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As I possibly can in the beginning

so that I'm visually seeing it.

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I work that way.

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I'm very visual, so I'm always

looking at things in that way.

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But I think it's a good point that,

it's what they say about working out.

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I don't know.

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Like you can't, what is it?

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You can't focus on one muscle

and think it's gonna work.

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Like you can't oh, I

can't remember what it is.

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Probably shouldn't have brought it up.

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John: You probably shouldn't have

because my mind's going to places that

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I can't talk about on the podcast, but.

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Angie: Good morning.

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John: Good morning.

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Look, I think I don't, I dunno where

the workout analogy is going, but I

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do think that the categories of our

life are not so compartmentalized that

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they don't bleed over into each other.

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They do.

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Life is life is a big, messy

whole that we can categorize, but.

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This is a general coaching principle

you may have heard before, probably

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that if most parts of your life are

actually pretty good or even amazing,

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but one part of your life, one key

life area of yours sucks, you are gonna

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feel like crap because of that, because

it will bring everything else down.

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It will bring you down that you've got

this one area of your life that you

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just can't seem to get a handle of.

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I think I used to, early years

ago, used to use the example

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of Madonna on coaching calls.

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Like so successful in all these big

areas of her life, so successful

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in all these areas of her life.

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But relationships for Madonna always

seemed to be a big problem and

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something that, you know, no matter how

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Angie: Maybe you should

upgrade that to J-Lo.

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John: We could take our pick of

celebrities that seem to have

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relationship issues, right?

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Angie: Just I

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John: This is the thing of even if you

are mega multimillion selling artist and

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world famous, and life looks like success

on every level, but your relationships

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suck, it's gonna make you feel like crap.

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And you're gonna feel like there's

one thing that's missing from your

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life that you just can't get a

handle on and it makes everything

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else feel like crap as well.

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So we wanna have all areas of our life

being as good as possible, which means

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we need to pay attention to all of these

different areas of our lives as well.

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And that, so we need to have the context

and that's kinda what you're saying.

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We need to have the context of

what is going on for you at home?

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What is going on for you at work?

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Tell me a bit about, who's around and

what's around you and all those things.

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It gives us more, it gives us more

context to work with the life that you

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are in, that living, rather than just the

words that you tell us for what what you

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wanna talk about on your coaching call.

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Angie: Yeah.

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Did you ever have that happen?

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Did you ever work with a client for

a, like an extended period of time?

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Somewhere.

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Again, I'm going to, I know why 30 eight's

coming up today, but somewhere in session

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38, they say something like, I don't know.

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I had a few different situations happen.

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I'll use a very extreme one where a

client shared that they had lost a child

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and I'm, I literally was so dumbstruck

by the statement and it was so matter

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of fact when I lost my son and I was

like literally the screeching halts.

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In my mind and I said whoa.

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Pause there for a minute.

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Because I was feeling all the feels right.

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I was like, wait, what?

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What did they just say?

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And I needed clarification because I

wanted to make sure that, the loss of

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the child was actually what I thought.

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And so I was like, I'm

sorry, can you repeat that?

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And they sounded so matter of

fact . But I was like blown away.

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They're like, oh yeah, like right before

I started working with you 38 sessions

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ago, which is a long time, by the way.

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Not always within a year.

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Sometimes it takes over a

year to get to that point.

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And I was like, in my head, I was

thinking, where in the heck was

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this information in the beginning?

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But I also realize right in that moment,

people don't generally disclose upfront.

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The areas that are the most painful or

sometimes they don't even realize it.

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To your point too, sometimes we don't

realize how affected we actually are

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by the imbalance of happiness and

fulfillment in areas of our life.

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But that was like a pretty big moment.

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And it happened within the last seven

years of me being a coach and it

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: 00:16:46

was still a very eye-opening, like

conversation or even a, experience because

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I, they didn't wanna talk about it.

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And I said, I'm going to respect that.

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For today.

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That's what I said for today, because

I'm sure they didn't mean to say

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it because it had been the secret,

but it became a huge part of which

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: 00:17:08

I saw things so much more clearly.

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I was like, oh.

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: 00:17:11

That makes sense, but so did you ever

have that happen where something came

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: 00:17:15

up and obviously maybe not that extreme,

but like you're thinking, where in

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: 00:17:19

the, was this information in day one?

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: 00:17:21

John: Yeah.

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: 00:17:22

Yeah.

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: 00:17:23

There's one example that comes to

mind, which was a guy was coaching.

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: 00:17:27

Again, things seemingly

going really well in life.

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Marriage seemed to be going

well, family, all that.

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: 00:17:33

I.

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Career as a speaker actually

going was going really well.

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: 00:17:38

I'm not gonna give much

more information than that.

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: 00:17:39

But not that it would make him, not

that it would make him identifiable,

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: 00:17:43

but you get a sense to the coach when

there's something, there's something

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: 00:17:46

underlying that you haven't got to yet.

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: 00:17:48

And I wouldn't say it took us 38 sessions.

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: 00:17:51

I think it might have been at least

six, I think it might have been at least

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: 00:17:54

six months though before we got to this

of of him getting to a point where me

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: 00:18:00

challenging saying, I feel like there's

something, it's something deeper here.

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: 00:18:04

And

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: 00:18:05

he that was around the time he

decided it was the right time for him

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: 00:18:09

to come out as gay and that he had

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Angie: Oh, okay.

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: 00:18:12

John: his life.

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: 00:18:12

So it was a really huge thing it's not

the kind of thing that you really can.

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: 00:18:16

Push someone, nor should you try

and push someone to come out.

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: 00:18:19

They have to do it when

they're ready to do it.

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: 00:18:22

But it's okay to have that sense

and to maybe you'll dig around

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: 00:18:25

it rather than right at it.

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: 00:18:27

And we can at least think like an

archeological dig with this, or you

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: 00:18:31

dig around the artifact that you find

and you start to uncover it, but it's

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: 00:18:34

still hidden away under a layer of dirt.

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: 00:18:37

Because it'll be revealed in its own time.

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: 00:18:39

And you don't wanna interfere with it.

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: 00:18:41

So that's the thing of that was

a huge leap forward for him.

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: 00:18:44

Obviously completely transformed his life.

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: 00:18:46

I think his life was 12

months later I got a message.

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: 00:18:48

We weren't still working together,

but I got a message from him

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: 00:18:51

that, his life was really good.

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: 00:18:52

He was in a relationship with the guy

now, and I don't think the breakout

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: 00:18:57

with his wife went all that well.

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: 00:18:58

But yeah

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: 00:18:59

Angie: listen, it gets messy and

we all fear the messy, and I think

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: 00:19:02

another point is if you're if you're

actually thinking about how do I do

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: 00:19:06

this really, how do I really do this

digging that you guys are talking about?

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: 00:19:10

I think that sometimes you also

not, we always talk about listen

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: 00:19:14

for what's not being said.

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: 00:19:16

I think people have gotten that, but

I also pay very close attention when

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: 00:19:20

they're like, oh, this is great.

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: 00:19:23

My job is great.

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: 00:19:24

The kids are great.

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: 00:19:26

My spouse is great, my health is great.

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: 00:19:30

I will literally call out

in a very positive way.

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: 00:19:33

Alright, wait, so let's go to the

spouse or something maybe we haven't

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: 00:19:36

talked about as often and say,

tell me what's so great about that.

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: 00:19:40

I'd love to know.

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: 00:19:42

I'm gonna tell you that has been one

of my like biggest I almost feel like

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: 00:19:47

it's a hammer, if you're doing a dig,

sometimes you have to use specific tools.

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: 00:19:51

It's like somebody, working in your mouth

and they went from it's like somebody

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: 00:19:54

coming and going, oh, I'm using this

dental instrument to all of a sudden

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: 00:19:57

it feels like a hammer in your mouth.

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: 00:19:59

It's very extreme and very

scary and uncomfortable.

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: 00:20:02

But that's the, that is usually a

great segue for me when somebody is

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: 00:20:07

I asked, so tell me about so tell

me about your marriage and tell me

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: 00:20:10

about, and they go, oh, it's this, I,

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: 00:20:15

tell me about

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: 00:20:15

John: Absolutely that.

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: 00:20:17

Angie: So you don't have to call

people out in a negative, right?

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: 00:20:20

John: you're giving me

flashback, flashbacks to my

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: 00:20:22

dental appointment this morning.

401

: 00:20:24

Uh, so thanks for that.

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: 00:20:25

Angie: I didn't

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: 00:20:26

John: no, I.

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: 00:20:27

I, I wondered if you had been gone

back and listened to my episode on

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: 00:20:30

toxic positivity that that I did.

406

: 00:20:32

But no I don't, it doesn't

necessarily relate to that.

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: 00:20:34

I think you're right.

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: 00:20:35

It's deflection.

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: 00:20:36

It's like when people are, people

keep making jokes about, or you

410

: 00:20:39

trying to approach a serious topic and

they keep batting it off with humor.

411

: 00:20:44

It's a defense

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: 00:20:45

mechanism.

413

: 00:20:46

it's a protection mechanism to, because

they don't want you to go there.

414

: 00:20:50

It is.

415

: 00:20:50

It's almost like putting

the sort of warning, warning

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: 00:20:53

lights outside saying, woo.

417

: 00:20:55

Don't go there.

418

: 00:20:55

Don't go there.

419

: 00:20:56

I'm gonna push you away

every time you try to.

420

: 00:20:58

So if I tell you it's wonderful,

you are not gonna go there.

421

: 00:21:01

'cause it's wonderful.

422

: 00:21:02

And it's you should still go there.

423

: 00:21:03

Like nothing is, nothing in any area

of your life is gonna be so wonderful

424

: 00:21:08

it couldn't be improved upon because

there's always room for growth.

425

: 00:21:12

And if we're not growing in any part of

our lives, we're going the other way.

426

: 00:21:16

We're regressing and entropy

427

: 00:21:19

Angie: Yeah.

428

: 00:21:19

Being stagnant isn't just

as bad as going backwards.

429

: 00:21:22

Absolutely.

430

: 00:21:23

I think, there's this other point

that I, this other piece that I used

431

: 00:21:27

too, and, if somebody, depending on

what it is I had a client who had

432

: 00:21:32

a, an abusive alcoholic partner.

433

: 00:21:35

And very much was like and

just an enabler, 1 0 1, right?

434

: 00:21:41

I was there too, and it turned into

this thing and, oh, you're at a party.

435

: 00:21:45

And it turned into this, and,

but I should know better.

436

: 00:21:48

As soon as I heard that, I knew that it

was like something that was recurring.

437

: 00:21:52

I should have known better.

438

: 00:21:54

And I was like, oh, why?

439

: 00:21:55

Tell me why.

440

: 00:21:56

Why should you have known better?

441

: 00:21:57

'cause when it's happened

in the past, and I'm like.

442

: 00:21:59

Okay.

443

: 00:22:00

Red alert.

444

: 00:22:00

Red alert.

445

: 00:22:01

This flags going up all over the place,

so I knew that in this particular dig,

446

: 00:22:07

I actually had to put the gloves on,

this was going to be very sensitive and

447

: 00:22:10

delicate, and I needed to get the finest

of instruments out to be able to coach

448

: 00:22:17

this person and make sure I wasn't falling

or slipping inadvertently into therapy.

449

: 00:22:25

Which by the way many months later,

I did, convince this person I think

450

: 00:22:29

that this needs to happen because it

was ongoing and it was problematic.

451

: 00:22:34

It wasn't a good situation.

452

: 00:22:36

So anyway, point that I'm

making is, you really do have

453

: 00:22:39

to control your information.

454

: 00:22:43

No one to tread lightly, and I don't know,

did you ever, as a coach John, did you

455

: 00:22:48

ever just stay away from a topic, like

for the whole coaching re relationship,

456

: 00:22:55

John: Yeah.

457

: 00:22:56

Yeah, because when I did try and

broach it, and I think one client in

458

: 00:23:00

particular with this and I do think.

459

: 00:23:02

I do think there were probably issues

around sexuality or sexual identity.

460

: 00:23:07

I'm not necessarily saying

that they were gay or bi.

461

: 00:23:10

That might, it may have actually

been asexuality in this particular

462

: 00:23:13

instance or something like that.

463

: 00:23:15

I don't know a hundred percent,

but relationships was just

464

: 00:23:18

not somewhere he wanted to go.

465

: 00:23:19

And when I did challenge that

in a really nice way, and it was

466

: 00:23:24

just not an area that he wanted

to focus on or talk about at all.

467

: 00:23:28

At least not in intimate relationships.

468

: 00:23:30

Friendship's great, but close, intimate

relationships was not somewhere that,

469

: 00:23:33

that he wanted to go on the calls.

470

: 00:23:35

And so I had to agree that was

the case and that maybe at some

471

: 00:23:37

point it'll come up, but I'm not,

it's not something I'm gonna push.

472

: 00:23:42

Angie: So listen, and I think that to

wrap up the topic, 'cause we've given

473

: 00:23:45

some good tidbits today and some great

practices on how to do it, I also do think

474

: 00:23:51

that, and you know me, I'm very direct.

475

: 00:23:53

I am a digger, but I also know my place.

476

: 00:23:56

I do not have the right as a coach to

intrude where I am actually not welcome,

477

: 00:24:03

and I may not know the reasons why.

478

: 00:24:06

And if I do dig and I do get more

direct and even push a little bit, pull,

479

: 00:24:11

poke, prod, whatever, and I'm still

getting that, that resistance, I need

480

: 00:24:17

to check myself and say, you know what?

481

: 00:24:18

I have to be respectful of this person.

482

: 00:24:21

So there is also a line to

draw for yourself as a coach

483

: 00:24:25

and say, you know what?

484

: 00:24:26

I have to stop.

485

: 00:24:28

This is the place to your

486

: 00:24:29

John: Yeah.

487

: 00:24:30

Look, we're talking about

digging not bulldozing, right?

488

: 00:24:32

We, we do not want to bulldoze, we

don't wanna, we don't wanna push

489

: 00:24:35

them into something that they're not

ready for yet, just 'cause we want

490

: 00:24:38

to coach them or we want to challenge

them or feel like we're doing that.

491

: 00:24:40

It's like you do not have

to be the provocative coach

492

: 00:24:43

on every single situation.

493

: 00:24:45

Sometimes you just have

to allow and create.

494

: 00:24:48

And hold the space for

vulnerability and psychological

495

: 00:24:51

safety so that when they're ready, they

can, and you can lead them towards that.

496

: 00:24:56

So yeah, I think that's

497

: 00:24:56

Angie: And you can leave

it like that with them.

498

: 00:24:58

Mo, you could say, you know what,

when you're ready, we can come back

499

: 00:25:02

to this and you may never be ready.

500

: 00:25:04

Just be respectful and you'll

gain so much more trust with them.

501

: 00:25:10

John: I think so, I think that's a much

healthier coaching relationship to have.

502

: 00:25:14

I'm sure you hope you do too, that's

pretty much it for The Coaching Clinic

503

: 00:25:16

this time and we'll look forward

to seeing you on another episode.

504

: 00:25:19

very soon.