Coaching on Imposter Syndrome (for ourselves and our clients)
Confronting and Overcoming Imposter Syndrome
In this episode of the Coaching Clinic, John and Angie dive deep into the topic of imposter syndrome through a candid conversation and personal anecdotes.
They start with a thought-provoking game of 'Who Am I?', revealing statements related to imposter syndrome.
Throughout the discussion, they explore the sneaky and pervasive nature of imposter syndrome, its psychological effects, and share techniques to deal with it.
They emphasize the importance of taking action and maintaining a healthy detachment to overcome self-doubt.
The episode also touches on how emotional intelligence, empathy, and creating an alter ego can help coaches and clients alike to navigate through imposter syndrome effectively.
keywords
imposter syndrome, feeling inadequate, fraudulent, competence, faking it, embodying, alter ego, imposter syndrome, coaching, growth, success, self-doubt, fear, perfectionism, procrastination, certifications, qualifications, experience, results, detachment, action, manage
takeaways
- Imposter syndrome is a common experience, even for successful individuals
- Distinguishing between faking it and embodying our desired self is important
- Creating an alter ego can help us step into the version of ourselves we want to be Imposter syndrome is common among coaches and can hinder their growth and success.
- Perfectionism and procrastination are related to imposter syndrome and can be used as excuses to delay taking action.
- Certifications and qualifications are not always necessary to be a successful coach; experience and results are more important.
- Coaches should detach themselves from their clients' emotions and maintain a focus on moving forward and taking action.
- Imposter syndrome can be managed by questioning doubts and fears, challenging oneself, and recognizing it as a sign of wanting to do well.
titles
- Stepping into Your Alter Ego
- Understanding Imposter Syndrome Maintaining Detachment: Coaching Through Emotions
- Overcoming Imposter Syndrome: A Challenge for Coaches
Sound Bites
- "I am the voice of imposter syndrome."
- "Never had it, never experienced that, never felt like an impostor in my life."
- "Imposter syndrome is always going to come up for anybody who is putting themselves out there."
- "We can step outside of our limitations."
- "Excitement and momentum can come to a screeching halt when it's time to actually be a coach."
- "Perfectionism is a form of procrastination."
00:00 Introduction to the Game
00:48 Revealing the Imposter Syndrome
01:42 Understanding Imposter Syndrome
05:01 Personal Experiences with Imposter Syndrome
07:01 Overcoming Self-Doubt
17:35 The Fine Line Between Faking and Embodying
24:49 Exploring the Concept of Drag in Coaching
25:37 Addressing Imposter Syndrome in Coaching
26:35 The Excitement and Challenges of Becoming a Coach
29:08 Perfectionism and Procrastination in Coaching
33:16 The Importance of Taking Action
36:45 Balancing Empathy and Detachment in Coaching
48:00 Final Thoughts on Imposter Syndrome
Transcript
John,
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:John: Angie.
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:Angie: are you up for a
short game of Who Am I?
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:John: of course I am, you
know I'm up for anything.
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:How do we play?
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:Angie: Okay, it's easy.
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:I'm going to make a statement and
you're going to tell me who I am.
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:All right, are you ready?
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:! John: Yes
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:Angie: Okay, here we go.
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:I am not smart enough to be a coach.
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:Who am I?
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:John: I'm not sure.
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:Angie: Okay, how about I am
not as good as they think I am.
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:Who am I?
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:John: Wow, these are super
unpleasant statements.
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:I don't know.
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:Give me one more.
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:Angie: Okay, I don't deserve this success.
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:John: Okay, Angie.
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:You got me on this game.
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:Who are you?
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:Angie: Okay, I am the
voice of imposter syndrome.
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:John: Oh, ouch.
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:Yes, you are.
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:Is that a topic for this episode?
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:Angie: Yes, it is.
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:Let's start the show.
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:Okay, so Obviously we're making this one
of our topics because I as a coach see
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:this at I see it Ongoing at the highest
level and I sometimes even sometimes to
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:this day You So, John, do you feel, do you
still, do you ever feel imposter syndrome?
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:John: Never had it, never
experienced that, never felt the, IM
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:like an impostor in my
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:Angie: of crap.
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:Don't listen to him.
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:This is nonsense.
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:John: It is a, it's absolutely, yeah.
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:You're true.
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:It's true.
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:It's crap.
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:Yeah.
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:Not as much now as I did, as I used to.
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:It is, it's lessened,
but it's still there.
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:And interest, interestingly, it's been
said that only sociopaths and psychopaths
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:don't experience imposter syndrome.
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:So, you know I'm, maybe kind of happy
that I do It's a good sign that that
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:i'm psychologically healthy and normal.
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:Angie: I don't know.
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:Wait a second.
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:I think we're stretching
this a little bit.
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:No, I'm joking.
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:I'm kidding you.
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:But no, and that is actually something
that, uh, It has been said, by
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:those, like, who, who are they, they
have said, but that is very true.
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:But there's the really, it's a very real
I mean, let's just call it what it is.
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:I think sometimes it gets a little overly
used as you know, tagline for people.
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:But the truth is, it is very, very real.
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:It goes beyond when we question
direction or shift or change, right?
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:It's normal for us to do that.
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:I think as coaches is to want to
challenge ourselves or to grow, but
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:there's actually four pieces, right?
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:If you will, there's stages and there's
spaces, right, of imposter syndrome.
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:John: Yeah, I would agree.
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:Look, imposter syndrome, I think is
always going to come up for anybody who
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:is putting themselves out there and is
concerned about doing well And wanting
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:to be good at what they do And not just
for themselves but for other people as
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:well So some of the stuff that ends up
being behind imposter syndrome is as we
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:call it Is this fear of being found out?
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:At some point they're gonna
find out they're gonna find
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:out i'm not good enough.
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:They're gonna find out.
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:i'm not as Qualified as or I'm
not as capable as they think I am.
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:And like, if you're actually not
as qualified as you're supposed to
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:be, then maybe you are an imposter.
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:So the syndrome might be valid in that
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:situation.
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:so yeah, there are There, there are
possibly people who have imposter
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:syndrome who should have it.
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:But for most of us who experience
it it's not, that's not the case.
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:And there is an opposite, there is an
opposite to imposter syndrome as well.
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:And this should be of comfort to most
of the people who experienced this.
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:It's if you've ever heard of the Dunning
Kruger effect, it's the belief that you
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:are more competent in something than you
actually are and that tends to be From
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:people who are at a level of ignorance to
not know or understand That they're not
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:as good as they think they are how blessed
how blessed that experience must be
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:Angie: Can you remember a Because
there's, there's a, there was a moment
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:for me that was, it was just too much.
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:Very obvious right that I went there.
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:I didn't have to search for it.
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:I had to process it But so for you have
do you have an experience that you can
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:you you went through that like big fat?
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:blinding question mark
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:John: Um, gosh a number of times I
think my first the first experience
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:I ever had of that really that I
remember Was when I was first employed
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:as cabin crew by British airways.
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:And the competition, certainly at
the time I joined, I don't really
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:know what it's like now, but I
think it's still fairly competitive.
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:And as a company, people seem to
want to work for but the competition
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:to get that role was really high.
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:And like the chances of actually getting
through and being recruited were low.
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:And so when I actually was, I thought at
some point they're going to figure out
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:they should have hired somebody else.
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:But maybe i'm not quite as good as I
think i'm now the next time after that
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:that I had that I felt that was being
taken on by a coaching company that kind
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:of headhunted me and I think at some
point they might realize That I don't
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:deserve to be as far up as I am and
they shouldn't Maybe they shouldn't be
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:putting me in charge of all this stuff.
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:It was just self doubt Ultimately
that's really what it was.
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:It's just, it was just my doubts.
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:It wasn't actually a lack of capability.
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:It wasn't actually that my
experience wasn't pretty with that.
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:It was a lack of somewhat of a lack
of belief in myself and my abilities.
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:And some of that was from me
and some of that was from.
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:External voices that had put
me down in the past or taught
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:me, talked me down in the past.
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:And some of it was just, a bit of fear.
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:So, these are not the only times in
my life that I've had this experience
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:by any long shot, but those are
probably some of the most significant
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:memories I have of that experience.
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:Angie: so interesting
that you bring that up.
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:You know what it happened to me When
I started working with a client that
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:literally worked for NASA and they were
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:John: Yeah.
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:Angie: And in my mind, I was thinking
that it wasn't that I wasn't going to
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:be a good enough coach that it was like,
I felt as though, and again, I had to
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:process through this, but I was feeling
as though I wouldn't have been able
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:to keep up with them intellectually.
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:And then I you know, like two sessions
in, If I kept showing up with who I am as
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:a coach, it didn't really matter, right?
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:Obviously, there's other nuances that
go into a great coaching and not all
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:of our clients are built the same.
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:And you know, flex and shift
energy and things like that.
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:But it was really an, a big,
huge aha for me of, everybody
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:puts their pants on, right?
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:One leg at a time.
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:Sometimes, sometimes it's two, but we
all That there was no betterment, they
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:weren't better than me because they were,
again, super intelligent, but you know
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:what, couldn't get out of own, like,
fight their way out of a wet paper bag.
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:that's why they were in coaching, right?
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:Coping skills, etc.
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:And so what happened was, I, what I
realized was that I needed to stop
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:looking to be, like, I was looking
to be perfect in those sessions.
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:Because I felt like there
was a different light on me.
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:And one of the things that I've come
to realize is that if we strive for
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:perfection, which we now write in and
you know, it doesn't even exist and
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:we shouldn't strive for perfection
because it would out mistakes or
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:without being like, we'll never grow
right without making mistakes, without
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:putting ourselves in those uncomfortable
positions, like we're never going to
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:grow, if we actually got it perfect.
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:Well, where do you go from there?
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:Like, I'm like, if it's truly
perfect, where do you go if
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:you're in a session with somebody?
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:So that was one of the big, like, I
was, I remember being very nervous
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:getting on to the first call, like,
it was physically even affecting me.
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:and I would say that I, of course, I
think when you don't know something
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:or whatever, you kind of have that
feeling of like, I'm nervous when
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:you haven't experienced something.
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:After that point, I had never worked
with somebody from NASA, right?
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:Or that level of intellect.
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:So now I wear it as a badge,
like I coached that like, like
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:a boss, you know, I was bad ass.
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:So it really didn't matter.
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:So that's one I mean,
that was very specific.
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:It was like an intellect
thing and why, right?
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:Like, why do we allow ourselves to get
into these positions, more mindsets?
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:Of not being good enough
or being found out, right?
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:That's really the key you mentioned
it And I think well, how do you
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:really keep the finger on the pulse?
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:How do you know you're not really
one of those people that should just
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:pack it up out and get out of dodge?
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:You should not be a coach
because you are a fraud
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:John: yeah,
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:there's a good chance that here's how
I think you can tell if you're asking
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:yourself that question If you know that
the answer is i'm not actually qualified
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:or experienced enough and i'm completely
out of my depth But you're trying to
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:fake it to make people think that you're
further ahead or more qualified or More
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:expert than you really are You Then yes,
unfortunately, some people should have
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:imposter syndrome in that situation.
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:You probably should.
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:However, there are times when we
find ourselves a bit out of our
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:depth because we are, because
we've risen to a challenge.
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:We're not trying to fool anyone.
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:People have seen who we are.
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:We've been honest about who we are and
what we can do, but they've offered
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:us something that we maybe feel is,
I don't know if I'm ready for that.
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:Or that this is maybe higher,
more than I expected to be offered
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:or have to have put on my plate.
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:We then may be feeling
an imposter by that.
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:I don't know if i'm up to it I don't know.
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:Can I really do this?
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:Can I justify their belief in me?
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:It's all the self doubt stuff that
chances are you can and it's that's
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:your opportunity then to rise to the
plate There because there are definitely
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:real situations in people's lives where
they have misrepresented themselves.
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:And unless you are actually
misrepresenting yourself to people
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:and dishonestly putting yourself
out there, your imposter syndrome
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:as we are calling it here, is real.
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:You know, you, you are
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:Angie: very valid.
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:John: You are you're feeling like it, and
it's valid, but it's not based in truth.
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:It's just based in feeling
unless you are actually out
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:there misrepresenting yourself.
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:Angie: yeah, I think that's the real right
delineation between those two things and
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:everything else is about, I don't know.
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:I think I didn't have, or, you know,
when I did my very first official
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:session, it was interesting because
calling it a coaching session.
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:So let's say this, I say to you, I
have a 36 in, in, um, You know, and
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:in the personal and human development
space, a lot of that was based
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:on, being a manager and a trainer.
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:And that's where it started.
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:And it always naturally
turned into coaching, right?
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:What it actually is.
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:It was coaching before we were
calling it coaching back in the day.
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:And I add that when I talk about
it and people, I've had people
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:say to me, you weren't, you were
doing, I'm like, yeah, but do you
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:know what I was doing in that role?
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:Yeah.
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:Yeah.
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:Yeah.
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:My role might've been this,
but this is what I was doing.
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:And that put a little bit of
doubt in my mind well, am I
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:being, am I misrepresenting?
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:And I say, no, this is where I started.
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:But everything I did was about on
the behind the scenes in within
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:the role was really about personal
and professional development.
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:Without a doubt it was the foundation
of what I was doing So I got I quickly
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:got over that because I was like i'm
not gonna let other people Who don't
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:know what i've done or how i've done it?
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:Decide for me whether I'm being
an imposter or not, right?
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:I'm gonna go into these harder sessions
and there have been did you let me
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:ask you this have you ever Stepped
away from a client because whether it
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:was on your own or with a company Um
you kind of felt like you know what?
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:I really can't i'm not I'm really not
ready for this depth of work, or not
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:a good match, right, that you can't
Like, have you ever done that, or no?
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:John: No, the only time I've stepped
away from clients has been where either
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:I didn't feel I could serve them,
or there was a real mismatch that we
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:couldn't overcome, or where they needed
something that was well beyond coaching.
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:Other than that, no.
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:Hmm.
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:Angie: so here's the thing and the
reason I asked that is so if you had
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:continued with that person or those
people It probably would have led to
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:imposter syndrome It would have snuck in
imposter syndrome is not something that
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:we show up on a stage or in a session
Saying i'm feeling imposter syndrome.
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:What we feel is anxiety
insecure Questioning ourself.
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:Who am I?
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:How do I do I mean I have people
that I coach Let's say on the
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:daily almost that You know, make
hundreds of thousands of dollars
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:and still don't feel worthy of that.
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:They still believe That there's some
twist there that like because and
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:because they don't deserve it That
it's somehow going to be taken away
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:from them imposter syndrome shows up.
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:It's very sneaky.
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:It's not always obvious Right.
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:It's not I was doing a talk, a workshop,
and I anticipated 50 people at this.
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:It was at it was for a big corporation,
but I was only anticipating 50 people.
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:There were like 500 people in that room.
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:And when I tell you that when
I was peeking out behind the
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:court and I saw these people, I
thought, Oh, there must've been.
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:More than one event today.
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:No, they were all coming into the
event that I was doing, essentially
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:participating in, and I will tell you
in that moment, I felt, I could feel it.
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:Now my palms are getting sweaty
that moment, because all of a
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:sudden, somehow the belief of
being able to speak to 50 people.
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:Was okay, but 500 was out of my
scope and I literally had to go
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:into the restroom and breathe my way
through it wasn't, I don't know what
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:the difference really was for me.
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:But all of a sudden I was
like, I can't do that.
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:I can't do that.
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:I can't.
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:I quit.
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:That's what I kept saying.
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:I can't do that.
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:I can't talk to all these people.
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:How am I doing?
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:I'm not.
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:How am I?
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:Holy crap.
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:And guess what?
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:I had no choice.
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:I had to go forward.
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:Right?
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:I couldn't fake a seizure in the
bathroom and say, Oh, sorry, she's out.
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:I didn't want to do that.
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:But what it showed me was that.
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:that the story that he threw was my
imposter syndrome, it really was the
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:surprise thrust me into this moment of,
I wasn't saying, holy cow, I can tell
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:you that for a fact, but I was petrified.
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:Petrified and it was just simply
because I didn't know I could do it.
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:I hadn't done an audience.
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:I hadn't been in front of an
audience that large up to that point.
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:so it's really, this is the thing.
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:It is really sneaky.
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:And I think for the people who
are listening, you said it.
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:Amazingly, I it's like
if you are not qualified.
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:So if you are misrepresenting your
qualifications or your experience
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:or something about something that
would make a difference, right?
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:I don't care if you go home and
you live like a border, right?
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:If you can get in front of people
and make a difference for and
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:with them, then that is nothing.
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:That's not of anybody's business, but
if you are misrepresenting who you are
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:professionally, You might want to check
that but when you're in it because
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:because every day that you're a coach
You're gonna learn something and you're
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:never it's kind of like an escalator
that never ends There's always going to
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:be a higher level from where you are.
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:That doesn't mean you're not qualified to
reach for it I don't I'd rather the the
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:surgeon that's done 300 surgeries than
the first You But I don't want to know.
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:John: There's a huge difference between
faking it and embodying who you want
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:to be showing up as in the world.
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:Because faking it is like pretending.
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:It's it's very much recognizing I'm
not that, I'm going to pretend to be
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:that and you are aware that you're
lying to yourself and to other people.
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:Whereas when you decide to embody who
you really want to be showing up as in
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:the world, that's very much a thing of
well, I'm not pretending I am this, I'm
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:just choosing to show up in this way.
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:I want to show up as this.
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:As this version of myself not to
lie about who I am still going to
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:be honest about, I don't know about
where I am financially or where I am
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:professionally, but I want to show up
with the energy and the attitude and as
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:this version of myself, who I want to be.
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:So it's not lying to other people.
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:It's really about stepping into.
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:The you you want to be in the future
trying to be more that now So I think
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:there is a difference and it may be maybe
a kind of like a fine line for some people
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:but you're not trying to lie to people
you're just trying to show up as a better
325
:version of yourself that you want to
be showing up as in the world So there
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:there
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:Angie: I don't even
think we could know that.
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:Yes, there is a distinction,
but that's to your point.
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:I don't even think we could know how
good we can be until we do the thing.
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:so my, my example plays in perfectly here.
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:I expected one thing.
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:And I, listen, and when I went out
onto that stage, and I literally think
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:I was probably ready to pee myself.
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:I was like, because now seeing
everybody from that visual perspective
335
:was even worse than what I didn't
thought it was going to be when
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:I was in the restroom breathing
and trying to get myself together.
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:And I was honest.
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:I was like, wow, first thing I
they, you know, Hey, this is Angie
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:blah blah blah and all the things.
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:After they calmed down I go, I paused
for a minute because I was like,
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:Oh shit, I don't know what to say.
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:And I was like, wow, there
are so many more of you.
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:Then I thought we're going to
be here and that's just awesome.
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:And I just went with it there.
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:Like kind of had to embrace that
as a positive and just go with it.
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:But what that did in that moment was,
brought me to a new level, right?
347
:Brought me to a different experience
that I'd ever had than I'd ever had.
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:And yeah, I just did it anyway, so I
don't know I didn't get up there and
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:misrepresent myself and say wow this
is not such a big what I mean like I
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:didn't try to minimize anything I was
really like this is pretty incredible to
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:do this and I I think that you're right
that there is a fine line to faking it
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:because if I envisioned that day I was
coaching 500 people which I had never done
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:and And it's not that I was faking it.
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:I was doing it.
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:There's a difference.
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:John: Maybe this might make
it even clearer for you.
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:Like, when I first got into the
world of personal development, there
358
:were, I would even say there were a
lot of people who were teaching that
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:fake it till you make it philosophy.
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:Maybe you had that experience
as well, but certainly thing
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:Angie: Yes.
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:John: late 80s early 90s 2000s.
363
:There were people who were teaching
fake it till you make it I would see
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:people roll up to personal development
events in a flash car fancy suits or
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:all the things Who were flat broke?
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:and wanting to Represent themselves as
being millionaires or multi millionaires.
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:They wanted to be Wanted people to
think that they were something special.
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:And a number of people got themselves into
huge amounts of debt, trying to do that.
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:That was faking it and definitely
not making it, fake it to make it.
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:It actually doesn't work because
they were lying to themselves
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:and the others racking up debt.
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:But then there were people who were
showing up and not pretending to
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:be someone else, or not trying to
deceive anyone into thinking that
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:there was something they were not.
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:They were just showing up with a really
strong, great energy, wanting to be
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:a part of things, wanting to be that
better version of themselves and showing
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:up and participating and being noticed.
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:And that was really the thing of
that's more the sort of embodiment
379
:aspect that I'm talking about.
380
:It's like you show up as the
best version of yourself that you
381
:can manage to be in that moment.
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:Rather than trying to.
383
:Convince people that you
are something you're not.
384
:So I don't know if that makes
it any clearer, but hopefully,
385
:hopefully, that, that's some of my
386
:Angie: I think,
387
:well, I think that because this
is such a subjective topic, right?
388
:There's no way for you and I to say
to our audience, it's this, it's this,
389
:and it's this every single time, right?
390
:That's not the way it works because
as I tried to convey earlier, right?
391
:It is sneaky.
392
:And I think sometimes what
being nervous about getting on a
393
:stage is not imposter syndrome.
394
:It's normal every day or getting
nervous about you know, your
395
:first session with a client right.
396
:Is a little unnerving at times.
397
:I don't think I'm as
nervous as I used to be.
398
:Like now I just welcome in
and it's just what I do.
399
:But does that mean I was faking it
before when I was unsure and unsettled?
400
:No, it means I grew, I
learned, I experienced.
401
:And so what we have to be
able to do is manage those.
402
:Thoughts and beliefs when
they present themselves and
403
:really do a check in, right?
404
:Really be able to say, okay, is it that
I'm lying or am misrepresenting myself.
405
:And then this, is it true?
406
:Just because I haven't done this yet
does not mean that I'm faking it.
407
:It just means that it's part
of my process and my journey.
408
:As a coach,
409
:right?
410
:That's the bottom line.
411
:John: Well, I've just finished reading
a book called the alter ego effects
412
:by Todd Herman and fascinating book
because it really is about creating
413
:this version of yourself or this
yeah, like a part and like a part of
414
:yourself and alter ego for yourself
who can be and show up the way that you
415
:really want to in a certain situation.
416
:So if like you're struggling with
doubt or certainty on the football
417
:pitch, for example, you can create
this alter ego for yourself.
418
:He just goes for it and focus
that in the flow, it's still you.
419
:It's not, again, not misrepresenting.
420
:Same as if you're a coach or a
speaker, you can create this kind
421
:of alter ego version of yourself.
422
:That is just this is how
I want to be showing up.
423
:These are the attributes and the
qualities that I want this version
424
:of myself to be showing up as.
425
:And you can step into that and say,
yeah, maybe it's a bit of acting.
426
:Right.
427
:Well, it is stepping out of
your limitations that you
428
:have created for yourself.
429
:The boundaries of your personality
is giving yourself that opportunity
430
:to step into another personality.
431
:And that offers liberation and freedom.
432
:I've often thought about this
with drag Queens, funnily enough,
433
:Angie: have you now?
434
:John: have not,
435
:I've dabbled, but it's not really
for me, but I see how for some people
436
:drag has been an opportunity to find
and Open up aspects of themselves
437
:that they weren't able to do outside
of drag has allowed them to access
438
:this alter ego this character that
can allow them to be who they really
439
:want to be and show up in a much more
Empowered way in the world in life.
440
:We all have different kinds of drag
available to us It doesn't have to be
441
:that we dress up as the opposite sex or
that we need to go on RuPaul's drag race
442
:or that we this is the alter ego kind
of thing is to some degree a personality
443
:kind of drag off with dressing up We're
dressing up, dressing ourselves up, not
444
:literally, not physically, but emotionally
as who we want to be showing up as, that
445
:we can step outside of our limitations.
446
:So I think that could be a great thing
to use as a tool for working with clients
447
:who are struggling with imposter syndrome
and even for ourselves as coaches.
448
:If we are coming into that as well, that
we can have this work or professional
449
:version of ourselves that we can turn on
when we're doing our work and turn off
450
:when we're not.
451
:Cause we all have different
aspects to our personality.
452
:So that could be a really, hopefully a
really useful tool, but I see it come
453
:up a lot in coaching conversations
and certainly having done a lot of
454
:work with people who want to grow
coaching businesses and people who
455
:want to be professional speakers.
456
:It just regularly like almost
almost a daily thing that has
457
:come up in sessions, right?
458
:Of the imposter the am I am I
really good enough for this?
459
:Will people what
460
:will people pay me
461
:Angie: the thing
462
:though.
463
:Yeah, but here's the thing.
464
:I think that what happens, and
this is something that people who
465
:are listening and who are maybe
new or newer To the profession is
466
:that there's usually an excitement.
467
:Most people don't start out, you know,
coming out of high school saying I want
468
:to be a coach most of the time, right?
469
:There's usually experiences and
observations that they've, that they
470
:make over time that say, I didn't, I had
no idea like coaching when I was, Into
471
:it was you know, and a, and a sport.
472
:So what happens is there's usually
this excitement once there's this
473
:realization and an of like, I want
to be a coach, there's excitement.
474
:It's we envision like all of these
possibilities and helping people.
475
:And it's only when I feel
like we start putting like.
476
:The you know, I've watched people spend
what feels like an eternity, like an
477
:exorbitant amount of time trying to
get, my website needs to be right,
478
:and this needs to be right, and all my
pieces need to be in place before I can.
479
:I didn't have a website
when I started coaching.
480
:I didn't have that when I was work, and I
was workshopping before I was one to one.
481
:Right.
482
:I was doing groups and that's
just how it happened for me.
483
:so think that that's know, where
something I've, this is something
484
:that I'm just saying I've seen often
is there's excitement, excitement,
485
:excitement, and there's momentum.
486
:And then all of a sudden
everything comes to a screeching
487
:halt because now it's time.
488
:To actually be a coach,
not plan to be a coach.
489
:And I've seen people avoid.
490
:Without even realizing it job of a coach
and going, Oh, I think I want to do this.
491
:So I want to get this certification
and it's not, again, this is
492
:not about certifications or not.
493
:It's about the avoidance of, because
there's some level of uncertainty and
494
:I'm going to say, it's not just nerves.
495
:It's there's an imposter
syndrome story going on back
496
:there in the back of their minds
497
:John: It's always at that critical
point where the world of imagination,
498
:if you like, where what's going
on in your mind meets reality.
499
:The point at which what your vision
actually starts to become manifest
500
:in reality is the point where the
rubber meets the road and it's
501
:where a lot of people crash out.
502
:Angie: and they show up and you know what?
503
:I see it show.
504
:I'm so sorry.
505
:What the hell just happened?
506
:Go ahead
507
:John: You mentioned perfectionism earlier.
508
:You mentioned, we mentioned, we
been alluding to procrastination.
509
:The two are very related.
510
:I see, I see, Perfectionism
is a form of procrastination.
511
:The getting the get into that sort of
paralysis situation where things just
512
:aren't moving forward and The excuses
start to come up or they say that I
513
:need this certification or I need I've
got to have the website I've got to
514
:have the business cards like who the
fuck really needs business cards, you
515
:know , all of those things will start
to come up for people And they're just
516
:excuses and they're coming up because
of the doubt because of the self doubt.
517
:Can I really make this?
518
:Am I going to be successful
in this like that?
519
:That's all the stuff that's bubbling up
behind there So as a coach, it's good
520
:for us to be able to notice that and
okay To some degree we're aiming to be
521
:somewhat Diagnosing, even though it's
not, even though we know that imposter
522
:syndrome is not it's not a pathology.
523
:It's not an actual syndrome,
but we refer it as that.
524
:Then maybe
525
:Angie: I think
526
:John: a word that we should say,
but it's just become so ingrained
527
:as being imposter syndrome.
528
:We're going to keep referring it to it
as that, because that is what everyone.
529
:Calls it but but even knowing that
we do need to still As best we
530
:can diagnose that it's like this.
531
:I think this is what's going on.
532
:And again, we're not Saying
you've got a condition.
533
:We're just saying this might be what's
going on behind here Are you feeling you
534
:have feelings of doubt that are coming
about your ability to be successful or
535
:Whatever with this and then we want to
dig into that and get curious about that
536
:Angie: that one of the things that i've
used it's just a simple tool and I think
537
:and I hope actually that People who are
listening will take this, you know when
538
:you find that you are Correct And you know
what procrastination is not something that
539
:all of these things are not so obvious
But if you set some realistic goals and
540
:you say, okay, i'm not reaching them I
want to be able to be coaching in three
541
:months and now i'm you know, nine months
in going Oh, wait, let me do another
542
:certification or let me do another this
will make me more valid We believe that
543
:we actually believe our bullshit so I
think that There needs to come a point
544
:where we are able to You Become more
familiar with identifying it, right?
545
:Cause like I said, at the
beginning, there are still moments.
546
:It's very rare, but there are still
moments where I do question and it's
547
:always when I'm in a growth spurt,
always, it doesn't show up necessarily
548
:in a session because if something
is challenging or if I have a client
549
:who's like struggling, I love that.
550
:That to me is part of why
we're doing what we're doing.
551
:That means I'm doing my job right.
552
:If they're and, and,
and, you know, it's hard.
553
:I just love that.
554
:Anyhow, but what I noticed for me,
because I wanted to be aware that I
555
:knew I could feel that thing is that
feeling of in, and it's always been in
556
:a growth spurt always, and I've had to
ask myself, okay, so what's your problem?
557
:Right.
558
:Um, now you want it.
559
:Now you're looking instead of 500 people,
you want to speak in front of 5, 000.
560
:Can you do it?
561
:I don't know.
562
:There's the voice or however it shows
up And and what i'm getting at is to
563
:ask yourself if it's really true, right?
564
:It's really true.
565
:Do I really need this next certification?
566
:How important is it for me
to get to this next level?
567
:Why do I want to get there?
568
:It's really you have to learn how to check
in with yourself so that you can stomp on
569
:like literally visualize yourself stomping
on this little gremlin that the that,
570
:that plants that seed of and, and not only
plants it, but feeds it and nourishes it.
571
:You need to, like, we need to be able
to, to have recognized that otherwise
572
:kind of find ourselves staying.
573
:And that's usually what a lot of people,
coaches will hire coaches, right?
574
:Like all of a sudden it's like,
I'm a coach and I need a coach.
575
:And that's okay.
576
:I have a coach.
577
:You have a coach.
578
:John: Yep, of
579
:Angie: So it's, it's
hard, but it can be done.
580
:John: Yeah, I do think it's important
to ask yourself can you get to
581
:where you want to get to without the
certification without the qualification
582
:without the course or program?
583
:That's on Up there in front of me
saying I have to do this first Because
584
:if you can then you should do that.
585
:You are putting it off You can there are
things that are nice to have and there
586
:are things that it needs to happen You
need to be able to identify what is there?
587
:What's not to have?
588
:Really necessary here and what is
just something like oh i'll feel more
589
:confident about myself when i've got
this or I'll tell you this I worked with
590
:a coach one time and very good at what
she was doing, and she said to me, I
591
:don't have any coaching certifications.
592
:And I said, well, okay, nevermind.
593
:And she said yeah, but
I feel like a fraud.
594
:Without them phoning without them,
I was like, well, create your own
595
:print, your own certifications.
596
:And she said, really?
597
:Why?
598
:Why would you say that?
599
:I said, because.
600
:My certifications, not all of them,
but a lot of my certifications are from
601
:companies that don't even exist anymore.
602
:They're not worth the
paper they're written on.
603
:And I don't put them on all.
604
:I have never once been asked in
all my years of coaching to show
605
:my certification other than when I
was going for a coaching position.
606
:With the company one
607
:time that's the only
608
:Angie: an
609
:John: somebody wanted to see with an
organization That's the only time no
610
:client has ever asked to see any of my
certifications or who I was certified
611
:with Now you may find this because there
are different certifications now and
612
:some of that is a little different in
the coaching world However in terms of
613
:having your own business and working with
clients It's not really a relevant point.
614
:It's just that it just
becomes a limitation.
615
:It's like, okay, well, if you genuinely
feel that you can't be out there
616
:calling yourself a coach without having
certifications and qualifications,
617
:then fine, and if you are completely
inexperienced, naive, Behind the ears and
618
:green and you don't have the knowledge
or experience to be able to really be
619
:effectively coaching people Then yeah,
probably you should take a bit of time
620
:out and process through But other than
that if you could be making a difference
621
:to people you're just putting that off
You're really just putting it off and
622
:doing a disservice to
623
:yourself and to your potential clients
624
:Angie: absolutely.
625
:Here's the thing.
626
:If you want to be imposter
syndrome, just go do it.
627
:Go be a coach.
628
:Go get your first client, your
second, your 10th, your 15th.
629
:And then all of a sudden, again, not
that it's never going to show up,
630
:but I think for people who are newer,
newer, newer, It definitely, it just
631
:starts to play you know, that music
keeps playing in the background.
632
:Just do it.
633
:You know what?
634
:If you feel like, I don't know if
I can, then you need to go do it.
635
:Because that is the only thing that
will help get you to that next level
636
:of discomfort is your experience.
637
:I mean, I would rather work with somebody
who, think about it logically, right?
638
:I would rather work with somebody who
has worked with 300 clients, let's just
639
:say, than somebody who's worked with
10 and has 300 other certifications.
640
:Those certifications don't really mean
anything until you utilize them anyway.
641
:Otherwise, it's just knowledge.
642
:It's not practice.
643
:And more, the more you do, what
happens is you're actually building
644
:your confidence simultaneously.
645
:So you will have that imposter syndrome
moment or those moments much less often.
646
:John: Yeah,
647
:it is really important to recognize
648
:With
649
:with a client with a with a client with
someone who you're working with It is
650
:really important to try and recognize
if this is what might be coming up for
651
:them So that you can help them through
this situation and Get encourage them to
652
:take the action and to keep going anyway
remind them that you know It's actually
653
:not a bad thing that they're feeling
this It's a good sign that they want to
654
:do really well that they want to show
up and do a great job and that they want
655
:to You They want people to be impressed,
we want people, we want to believe in
656
:ourselves the way we think other people
seem to be hopefully believing in us.
657
:It's very good to want these things.
658
:There is an upside to imposter syndrome
of Those doubts are coming up because we
659
:are because we want to deliver we want to
do well And it's our fears of not doing
660
:that But you made a great point about
that sort of it comes up at these growth
661
:points these growth periods Because those
are the points where it starts to get
662
:painful where it starts to get really
challenging And that's the point where
663
:people will tap out more often than not
because then it starts to get a bit real
664
:And then they'll probably move on to
the next shiny object because that's a
665
:lot easier than actually trying to see
something through And go through that
666
:growth because growth is painful Yeah,
667
:Angie: You know, I wanted to
bring this up because it's true.
668
:Growth is like, let me
just do something else.
669
:And then that keeps us busy.
670
:We love busy.
671
:Busy makes us feel but I want to, I
want to point out something also that
672
:I've seen very often, and I'm curious
as to whether or not you will agree,
673
:I know we're getting really long on
time and this just jumped into my head
674
:magically, I have experienced myself,
but I've experienced it a ton with My own
675
:coaching clients that were coaches are
looking to become coaches who felt that
676
:they had no business coaching somebody on
something, a topic or situation that they
677
:themselves were still struggling with.
678
:That's huge.
679
:That happens a lot because you and
I both know that when we put on
680
:our coaching drag, if you will,
that much of it is very natural.
681
:really like for me, I feel
like I know I'm a coach.
682
:It's just who I am at heart.
683
:It's what I do.
684
:And it's not something I learned.
685
:I've finessed it, but I think that,
you know, it's hard for people to
686
:get past that because they feel
like, what business do I have?
687
:Really, literally, if I can't, and
let's just say, if I can't navigate
688
:this type of communication, if
that's my worst trait as a human,
689
:by the you know, it's communication.
690
:And this person is literally
like struggling to communicate,
691
:whether it's at work or in home
or whatever, they're, they're very
692
:well, maybe this kind of mindset of
like, well, fuck, I can't help you.
693
:I can't even help myself.
694
:That's not true, right?
695
:So what do you think of that?
696
:Have you experienced that or
with or with with clients?
697
:John: yeah, a number of times, not
all the time, but a number of times
698
:and very often I'll, I don't know if
you find this, but sometimes I find
699
:that there'll be things that just
keep coming up in my coaching and like
700
:unconnected clients having similar issues
or similar things coming up for them.
701
:And often there'll be things
that I'm dealing with myself.
702
:Does that mean I can't coach them on that?
703
:No, I end up coaching
myself at the same time.
704
:That's
705
:That's what happens.
706
:So I'm coaching them.
707
:I like, I think, and they're putting
me in that position where I have
708
:detachment from their stuff so I can
coach them on that and I'm coaching them.
709
:And in the same time, that's
reflecting back on me because
710
:I'm coaching myself too.
711
:Angie: Notice the word that he, that
John just used is detachment, right?
712
:If we get so absorbed into the client's
space that we're sharing the space
713
:instead of keeping kind of at a distance
with that bird's eye view, yes, it
714
:is very hard because we're looking at
them going, Hey, misery loves company.
715
:I suck too.
716
:Not that we're going to say that, right?
717
:I'm struggling here as But it
absolutely does not mean that you
718
:cannot coach them through something.
719
:And yes, I've actually had it happen
and kind of thought to myself, well,
720
:geez, I don't know how to do this.
721
:And then, yes, I did, because I
stepped back into my coaching, right,
722
:drag and got out of the other space
that I allowed myself to fall into.
723
:So do you always have to have
everything dialed in in order to be?
724
:Yeah.
725
:A great coach or to elevate a
client or help them get caught.
726
:No, absolutely not.
727
:But what you do need to do is
absolutely main maintain that
728
:distance right between the two of you.
729
:And that will help you.
730
:And it great.
731
:Like, I mean, I've had moments as
well where watching somebody else or
732
:navigating through something with a client
over a period of time has helped me.
733
:As well, absolutely.
734
:And I do, I also think that if I literally
had to every, every session that I've
735
:ever done, given I have absolutely learned
something about myself or something
736
:that I might want to carry into another
session or as into like, that's a really
737
:good process or that was a really good.
738
:So I think it's just allowing that
flexibility of, You're not going to
739
:have it dialed in every minute of
every session, every time and giving
740
:yourself some brace to step away
from the situation and say, okay.
741
:What do I need to do?
742
:Because I am the pace car here.
743
:I am the authority, if
you will, in um, dynamic.
744
:John: yeah, I agree with that.
745
:I think there's there are times when i've
been coaching clients where It has put
746
:me in even more of a position where I
thought if I am to remain in my integrity
747
:as a coach I need to do this myself.
748
:I need to take action and that sometimes
has been More powerful more motivating
749
:to me than my own coach coaches that
i've worked with you know as I say, is
750
:it self coaching kind of but it is and
it isn't it is just like hearing your own
751
:words back, Most of us have the ability
to coach other people in some way shape
752
:or form Certainly if we have any level of
empathy we can coach other people there
753
:are specific kinds of coaching and there's
general kinds of coaching and some people
754
:are better than others, whatever whatever
but nearly always we learn something
755
:about ourselves in that process and We
coach ourselves a little bit as well.
756
:That's
757
:Angie: Listen, and this kind of
goes back to like previous episodes
758
:where we talked about building
rapport versus having results.
759
:know what I mean?
760
:Instead of being results driven.
761
:And I think sometimes It's natural.
762
:I've seen it when I've coached or
I've trained, sorry, other coaches
763
:where they're in the middle of a
call and somebody says, this is my
764
:situation, whatever it is, this is
where I'm struggling day and the
765
:coach goes beyond empathy, right?
766
:And saying, oh, I'm so sorry for
your loss or whatever the situation
767
:is, um, and stays there, right?
768
:They stay in that building of
rapport that come because they are.
769
:Either there or have been there
and they don't look to help get
770
:them out of that space and
that's where it's easy to get lost.
771
:We're all human, right?
772
:We all want you know, we want to relate
to people but you have a job to do and
773
:your job is to maintain the dynamic
of that session, you know what I mean?
774
:John: There are there have been times
in particularly noticed it in some
775
:group coaching sessions, especially
once where I haven't been the only coach
776
:on the call as well Where i've almost
felt bad about how detached I can be in
777
:certain
778
:Angie: oh, yeah, that's a good one.
779
:John
780
:John: Interesting, isn't it?
781
:And say something we can perhaps come
back to you Maybe this whole thing of
782
:detachment is an episode in itself but
yeah, i've ended up feeling bad about
783
:that but it's in one to one I tried to
keep that level of detachment and i'll
784
:get into stuff if I really feel that I
have to But I don't need to really be
785
:deeply empathizing I don't need to be
crying with my client if they're crying
786
:I need to be the source of solidness for
them It's either we can continue with
787
:the session or we can't but if I get
into it with them No one that session
788
:is not continuing You If I'm crying
on the call with them, we're done the
789
:session is pretty much just a pity fest
a cry fest or whatever it needs to be
790
:and That's not a good coaching session.
791
:And if that kind of happening group calls
as well, and I've had this situation
792
:where Emotional stuff has come up for
one or two people in a group call and
793
:it's if we get into this We're going to
derail the call and I will stay detached.
794
:It's I don't know if that she's
made me feel bad that it's I am
795
:moving as forward as I'm not being
pulled into the emotion of this.
796
:It's I don't, I'm not unsympathetic.
797
:I'm just, this isn't what we're here for.
798
:Angie: I think that what you're,
listen, you're saying this
799
:and you're right, want, I want
listeners to realize and understand.
800
:You're not very, it's
when you pull people.
801
:When you move the sessions forward,
group coaching or one to one,
802
:that you're still doing it with
grace, with heart, and with care.
803
:You're not going, okay, well, I think
the crying isn't going to help us today.
804
:Let's move forward.
805
:No,
806
:John: Stop
807
:crying, you little whinger.
808
:Angie: in trouble.
809
:There's no crying
810
:in baseball, what are you doing, right?
811
:But no, no, right?
812
:There's a way to honor somebody today.
813
:And say, Hey, listen, I'm
sorry for this or whatever it
814
:is and honor where they're at.
815
:And sometimes I've even had
to ask, but I've been in that
816
:situation exactly like you were.
817
:I've hung up from a call and said,
natural, Angie, human, Angie wanted
818
:to reach through and hold them and hug
them because I feel so much empathy.
819
:I care so much about them as.
820
:Humans, But I can't.
821
:That is not my job.
822
:That's another skill, by the way.
823
:Um, learning how to navigate through
that I think is It's an amazing
824
:skill because it doesn't always
happen when something is sad, right?
825
:Somebody could come in and be
like, I had a great this weekend
826
:and it was all about the weekend.
827
:Then I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa.
828
:Okay.
829
:So like, that's not as it's not
that 500 cup of coffee you're
830
:looking I think it's a skill to, to
learn and hone on a regular basis.
831
:John: Yeah.
832
:Yeah.
833
:I think there's a lot of aspects of
emotional intelligence that relate to
834
:this and that, that would be something
for us to look at another time, but
835
:yeah, it's it's interesting stuff.
836
:I think we've done reasonable
justice to our topic today.
837
:What do you
838
:Angie: think
839
:we've done I mean, let me ask
you, let's just like wrap it
840
:up with a little bow here.
841
:What do you think is a, for
you, the number one, your number
842
:one habit, technique, or skill
that helps you navigate, Um,
843
:imposter syndrome, if it shows up.
844
:John: with a client?
845
:Angie: Yeah.
846
:John: I would say that I am
able to get them to helicopter.
847
:Yeah.
848
:Out of their situation and look
at the reality like we're going to
849
:look at what's really going on for
them And there's going to be some
850
:questions around what are the doubts?
851
:What are the what's the worry here?
852
:And then we'll start to question
the reality of it as well.
853
:And then there's going to be An
element of gentle challenge to
854
:them was like let's get you moving.
855
:Cause I know that the way through this
is to take action, even with all the
856
:fear, the anxiety, the doubt is to
get you in action and moving forward.
857
:Like the answer to a lot of
things in life is to keep taking
858
:action and keep moving forward.
859
:And that's where I want to get them to.
860
:I want them to get into some momentum with
this and get out of the stuck feelings.
861
:So I would say that's it.
862
:It's get them moving forward.
863
:Angie: I agree.
864
:Action is the cure for all
things evil in the coaching world
865
:John: So often the case.
866
:But I like one of my friends, Suraj,
said this to me when I was interviewing
867
:him on my podcast, my other podcast, one
time, of he finds imposter syndrome very
868
:reassuring, that it gives him a sense of
his purpose and his mission, and that he
869
:is, That he's challenging himself that he
870
:Angie: and it better.
871
:John: because it's like he's challenging
himself to step up and be Put himself
872
:out there and make a difference.
873
:It's like great.
874
:I love that.
875
:I love that framing on imposter
syndrome It's like it's not
876
:a bad thing to have coming up
877
:Angie: yeah.
878
:No, as long as I think people will
learn how to manage it and not deter
879
:them too much and listen and it's okay.
880
:Sometimes coaching isn't, by the
way, coaching isn't for everybody.
881
:It's kind of like, I thought it was
this, it's not, and I don't really want
882
:to do it, and that's okay too, so, yeah.
883
:John: We'll just throw that in there.
884
:What are your thoughts?
885
:Listening into this episode?
886
:What are your thoughts on
imposter syndrome or Imposterism,
887
:whatever we want to call it the
imposter effect What do you think?
888
:What are your questions?
889
:Have you struggled to
coach people on this?
890
:Has this episode helped you?
891
:Do you have other questions that
you'd like to ask me or Angie?
892
:You can let us know you the best
way to do that is to contact us.
893
:You can leave us a voicemail.
894
:It's completely free.
895
:Go to speakpipe.
896
:com speakpipe.
897
:com forward slash the coaching
clinic podcast, and you can
898
:leave us a voicemail there.
899
:And if we like it.
900
:And we like your message.
901
:We might just feature you on the show,
902
:Angie: Yeah, that would be awesome.
903
:John: but that's pretty much it for
this week from the coaching clinic.
904
:We'll be back very soon with
another awesome episode.
905
:We'll see you then.
906
:Angie: Bye!
