Balancing Tough Love Coaching With Support: How direct should you be with clients?
Navigating Tough Love and Direct Coaching
In this episode, John and Angie delve into the nuances of responding to challenging feedback in a coaching context.
They discuss the balance needed between being direct and maintaining a supportive environment, emphasizing the importance of permission-based and individualized coaching approaches.
Through personal anecdotes, they explore the complexities of 'tough love,' the role of provocation in motivating clients, and the impact of different coaching styles based on client readiness.
The conversation includes reflections on avoiding judgment, the importance of authenticity, and strategies for effective communication, whether in one-on-one or group coaching sessions.
Remember, you can leave us a free voicemail with your questions or comments at https://speakpipe.com/thecoachingclinicpodcast.com and we might feature you on the show.
00:00 Introduction and Icebreaker
01:26 The Role of Tough Love in Coaching
04:51 Balancing Directness and Support
06:31 Challenges in Implementing Tough Love
08:23 Client Reactions and Adjustments
13:43 Evaluating Coaching Effectiveness
16:33 Creating a Safe Space in Coaching
17:31 The Importance of Real Talk
18:09 Learning from Feedback
20:13 The Power of Genuine Compliments
21:52 Balancing Directness and Support
23:45 Adapting Coaching Styles
29:58 Group vs. One-to-One Coaching
31:47 Wrapping Up and Listener Engagement
Transcript
John,
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:John: Angie.
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:Angie: let me ask you, how do you
respond to challenging feedback?
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:John: Ah, I love it.
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:I'm always hungry for feedback.
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:Angie: Oh, good.
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:And I say this with love.
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:I think your obsession with Taylor
Swift is becoming a bit unhealthy.
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:John: Oh, okay.
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:I'm listening.
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:I'm listening to your feedback.
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:I'm taking it on board.
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:What I'm hearing is that there's
another strong minded woman in my
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:life and you're feeling threatened.
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:Angie: Oh they say the
meaning of communication is
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:the response that you get.
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:So yeah, sure, John.
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:John: I'm glad we cleared that out.
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:Thank you for your feedback.
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:Angie: So are you going to shake it off?
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:John: Oh, Angie, I knew you
were trouble when you walked in.
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:Sorry, but Miss Swift is my jam.
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:I'm
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:Angie: Oh lord.
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:Okay, let's get the show started.
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:so you and I've been talking about this.
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:This is something that I think
so many coaches fall into.
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:My feeling at the baseline of this
is that how you start out as a coach
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:will generally, And I believe that
in order to really remain how you
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:are as a coach, even though you gain
experience and you live and you learn,
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:I think that if you
start out in a space of,
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:Being a little bit more of the tough love,
hi, I'm raising my hand, coach versus,
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:right.
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:I just want to say that.
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:I'm not saying that people can't
change, but I do believe that how
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:you begin is how you continue.
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:John: Yeah, I think there's probably
some truth to that and I certainly know
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:that it is possible to change because I
think my coaching in early days was less
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:direct, but look, there were reasons
for that that weren't personality based.
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:And maybe we can get into some of that,
but I do believe in direct coaching.
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:I do believe in tough love coaching.
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:I don't believe in being, I don't
believe in being mean to your clients.
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:I'm not, I am not for that.
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:And I know there are coaches who do that.
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:And, and I say no to that.
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:I think that's a good way to lose clients.
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:But I also know there are
clients who kind of love that.
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:So they have been mean to me, it's
like, or going to that Dick's last
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:resort, if you know that chain.
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:Where they, we go in and they insult you.
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:The first time I ever went in one of
those, we, with a group of friends,
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:we had no idea what the theme of
it was, that they're supposed to
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:be mean to you and insult you.
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:And we walked out.
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:Well, I think that can be what your
coaching sessions can end up being
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:like if you're not careful as well.
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:For me though, I think one of the reasons
why perhaps was maybe a little equivocal,
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:maybe a little diplomatic more than I
might want to be on earlier coaching
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:calls was because I was working for
another company and representing them.
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:So I had to balance that against
how direct I could be with clients
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:and find the ways to allow myself
to be more direct with them as well,
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:Angie: Yeah, no, I think that there's
I think there's some truth to that
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:because I'm certainly, maybe I'm gonna
contradict myself, but I think I've
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:always had the mindset of wanting
to be challenging to my clients.
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:But I don't know if I actually
practiced it as much as I thought
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:I did in the beginning, right when
I first started to actually coach.
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:I think the line comes up in
your everyday coaching.
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:You really want to be in
this space of bringing people
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:forward moving them forward.
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:And there's a balance, right?
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:There's a balance of meeting them where
they are versus, how much do we want
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:to, I don't even want to use the word
push because to me, When I think of the
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:word push, I envision myself on the edge
of a cliff and somebody's pushing me.
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:I don't like it.
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:But if somebody's holding my
hand and we have a parachute and
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:they say, okay, are you ready?
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:Let's do this.
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:It seems a lot more, I would
never do it by the way.
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:I'm just giving the visual that
perhaps if John were holding my hand.
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:I'd be, a little bit more willing
to jump off the cliff if I knew
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:I had the safety net of somebody
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:there
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:John: I was holding your hand,
at least no one would be able
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:to hear your screams above mine.
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:That's the only . That's probably probably
the best I could say for that scenario,
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:but
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:look.
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:Angie: pushing is scary, so it's really,
I think it's just really about finding
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:balance and understanding why being,
like, why you're being direct because
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:some coaches, I've been coached this
way where they're frustrated because
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:maybe I'm not moving as quickly.
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:As they think I should or could or
whatever and they're pushing again cliff
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:and then getting frustrated with me
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:That's just shit coaching.
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:Sorry.
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:John: Alright, so why as coaches do we
want to be direct and even provocative
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:with our clients and give them that
tough love that they sometimes need?
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:Why is that important do you think?
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:Angie: So here's the thing.
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:I look at the provocation piece
differently than I do The tough love
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:because for me when I'm coaching
the provocation is just what I do
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:Every single minute of every single
session, really, it's mind provoking.
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:I am definitely searching
for more and going deeper.
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:Tough love is when there is this, for
me, okay, this big neon blinking, light.
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:And I'm like, well, wait a second, and I
pause and I'll call it out and I'll say
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:something to the effect of do you see?
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:Can we pause?
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:Like I really try to be super direct in
that moment, but I'll call out and usually
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:that's when I know my client better.
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:So I know if they're going to
be triggered, I know how to
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:manage them or handle them.
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:So for me, provocation is
different than tough love.
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:John: it's a hard balance
to strike sometimes.
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:I remember, I think may have even
brought this up before in, in one of
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:our conversations, and I forget if we
recorded it or not, but I had a client
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:early on in my coaching days when I'd
been taken on by a personal development
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:company as one of their lead coaches,
where this client was showing up week
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:after week, not having taken any action.
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:And every week it was the same complaint,
the same whinging of, Oh, I can't do it.
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:And it was the same poor excuses
and just not doing the stuff.
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:I was like, well, yeah,
I can't make you do it.
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:And so, we have to get that.
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:It's this has to be you who does this.
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:I can't come and do this
with you or do that with you.
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:I don't have the time and you
don't have the money to afford
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:what that would cost you.
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:So.
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:It's not going to happen.
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:It got to a point where it's
like, all right, enough of it.
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:And we had, and I did all the
things you're supposed to do.
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:I asked for permission.
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:Can we have a real, authentic conversation
about, and she agreed to that.
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:And I gave her the direct feedback
and said, look, I really don't
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:see this any point in you showing
up to any more sessions if you're
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:just not going to do the work.
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:Like, why are you paying for coaching?
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:Just so you can pay for coaching.
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:It's a waste of half an hour of your time.
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:It's a waste of half an hour of my time.
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:If you want to waste money and have
half an hour of my time where we
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:don't do anything and you don't
get any results, that's fine.
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:And it went along those sorts of lines.
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:And then she started crying.
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:And so it
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:was
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:Angie: job, John.
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:Bring on the
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:tears.
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:Woohoo!
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:John: John!
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:Yay, John!
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:So it was like, okay,
that went really well.
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:So yeah, my first attempt at that
sort of tough love coaching on a
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:call like that did not go well.
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:I did end up saying to her, look, I
don't think we, you can be my client
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:anymore, I can be your coach anymore.
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:Other things happened, which I'm
not going to go into now, but
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:it ended up getting a bit nasty.
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:But I still think the feedback was valid.
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:So it's a weird situation.
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:Now, I don't think everyone is
like that particular person.
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:And I certainly have never had
a situation since where people
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:just haven't done anything.
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:And we've had to have that
conversation about why that is.
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:Why they need to take responsibility,
but I see tough love coaching as being
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:the thing that's like going to what's
the thing that you're not waking up to?
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:What's the thing like, yeah, you
can show up and yeah, there's
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:personal development stuff.
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:80 percent of the success is just showing
up, which I think is a bit BS anyway.
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:And
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:Angie: With you.
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:John: It's not just showing
up is how you show up.
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:It's what you then do is
the action that you take.
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:And that's the stuff that
makes the bigger difference.
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:Not just getting yourself
to a coaching session.
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:You have to want to make change.
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:And if you're not prepared to do
that, we have to have a chat about it.
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:Angie: You know what?
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:And I think too, so one of the things that
I realized, and I think everything that
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:you just said is definitely on the money.
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:There are definitely the majority
of clients, I think even if
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:it ends up being a good thing.
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:If you're really a great coach,
you're actually, you're extracting
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:things that they're not even aware of.
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:They may come in and say, I don't know,
like Michael, like, why are you here?
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:Why are you coaching?
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:And the answer may be that,
they want to do better as a
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:parent or just, create balance.
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:And they have some specifics.
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:And I would say that the beauty of
the coaching that I've done, because
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:I am so direct, is that they come out
with holy crap moments, like, holy
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:shit, how, where did that come from?
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:Well, I didn't create it, right?
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:We're, we're just extracting
what's already in place.
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:Now, for some, using the
example that you just gave,
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:it might very well be why.
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:And sometimes when you go into
that uncharted territory with a
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:client, the, they get, they freeze.
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:They're like, what just happened?
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:And they don't really know how to process
or deal with whatever's coming up.
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:And what happens is the tone of
the sessions can change because
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:now they've been challenged in,
in, in a new way, not in the way
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:they'd like, they're ready, right?
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:They come in to work with you and they're
like, I'm ready coach, bring it on.
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:And I'll even ask them,
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:honest it, you ask any of
my clients, I will ask them.
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:So when I do the check in, especially
do you want more challenge?
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:Like, how are you feeling?
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:Because again,
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:Think of the ledge.
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:I don't want to push, right?
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:I don't want it to feel like that.
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:And it's usually great, but there's,
there are those people, those groups
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:of people that are only willing to be
challenged where they're comfortable
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:being challenged, which is probably
what you're referring to, right?
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:It's like this person was
like, yeah, this is great.
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:But don't take me down any hallways,
dark corners that I haven't, they
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:don't want to do the dark works.
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:One of my clients said this the
other day and I was like mesmerized.
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:I'm like, dark work.
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:I love
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:that.
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:They want the yay, rah, rah coaching
that I just don't even own a pom pom.
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:I just don't, you know,
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:John: I have many pom
poms and a plethora even
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:an
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:Angie: what color are
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:John: poms.
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:Angie: Yes.
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:But you know what I'm saying?
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:John: get exactly what you're saying.
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:And I feel somewhat similarly.
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:I do.
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:I do like to support my clients, but I
also very much like to see them rising to
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:the challenges that are in front of them
and getting the success that they want.
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:This isn't about me pushing them in a
direction that they don't want to go.
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:It is getting clear with them.
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:Is that where do you want to go?
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:What would you like to get from this?
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:And how can I best support
you in getting there?
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:I would honestly say because most
of the people who do come work
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:with me do get some sort of sense
that I'm a straight to business.
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:No, no fluff kind of
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:guy.
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:Angie: Don't let the
accent fool you folks.
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:John: Yeah.
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:I like to go straight down into it.
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:I'll have a little bit of the niceties.
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:I'll ask you how your day was, but then
we're getting to work and, and I want
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:to have rapport, but I'm also going
to get permission if I feel I have to
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:say something or give some feedback or
comment that may be misconstrued or,
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:might be difficult for them to hear.
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:I'm going to ask first and say, are
you okay to get some feedback on this?
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:It might be a bit direct.
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:You might be a bit uncomfortable with it.
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:Are you okay?
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:Or shall we sw or shall we move on?
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:I have to know that they're open to it
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:and that
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:they're coachable to that level.
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:Angie: Yeah.
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:No, I think that you, we have to sometimes
when we feel uneasy, we get the little
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:signals and we should be able to be in
that session and also reading the session
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:at the same time, the energy of it.
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:And, sometimes you do have to take
that pause as a coach and say, Yeah.
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:Yeah.
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:Can I, may I have permission
to be super direct with you?
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:And then, in no way, shape, or form is
this a judgment, it's just, I'm curious.
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:And then, I wait for them to respond.
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:And maybe once or twice I've had
people say, no, I don't think I can
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:handle any more direct Angie today.
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:And I'm like, okay, fair enough.
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:Fair enough.
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:But
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:do you sit, do you come
back to that at some point?
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:Because that's the thing.
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:And that pain point I
know is my pain point.
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:That's something that we need to revisit.
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:And maybe we come about
it in a different way Oh
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:John: For me, the whole point of this
is that if you were in coaching, I
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:want to know why you're in coaching.
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:And if I'm going to be working with
you, it's because you want to grow,
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:it's because you want to develop, you
have goals, you have things you'd like
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:to be, do you have and create in your
life, and you're maybe even looking for
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:personal or professional transformation.
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:Those would be the reasons that
someone like Angie or myself
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:would be working with you.
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:And that, that's exactly
what it should be.
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:Fluffy coaching.
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:Maybe it does have a place somewhere,
but what does it really do?
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:I've never been of the mind where
I want to be in a coaching session
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:and not see anyone develop or grow
or change and just come and have a
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:nice time and a nice chat together.
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:That frustrates me so much.
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:And I think any coach listening
to this hopefully feels the same.
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:It's like, and
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:if
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:Angie: my gosh, I
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:hope
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:John: in your coaching, I hope so too.
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:If you find that happening in
your coaching, it is a warning
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:sign and you can do better.
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:That's all
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:Angie: Well, listen, you know what?
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:The thing is I do this.
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:This is a check in and this is
something that I learned from really
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:it was one of my mentors and This
person was the epitome of tough love
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:coaching, like through and through.
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:And it made me realize, I love that,
but it's a little, I can handle
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:it, but it's a little too much for,
I think the general population.
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:But one of the things that this person
said to me is regardless of what you're
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:charging, but let's say you're charging
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:like
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:three, four, 500 a session.
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:Let's just say you're actually at that
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:point.
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:You know what, was that a 500 cup of
coffee you just have with this person?
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:Because they don't need you for
that and she said this is the check
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:in you have to say to yourself was
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:that a productive session Or and again,
let me go back for a second because I
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:said I don't own any pom poms And that
means I don't want to I don't want to
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:give up the impression that I don't
support because I absolutely support
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:my clients in each and every session
no matter what's going on no matter how
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:difficult they can be What I don't do
is just have them come to every session
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:like yay.
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:Do you feel good?
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:Is everything great?
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:Do you love it?
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:And no because That's not what I'm here
to do like you were saying and it was
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:like this question mark of well How
do I actually gauge that as a coach?
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:It's tough I know there are some
coaches that will record Sessions.
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:Some coaches do it face to face.
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:Some coaches do it on Zoom
or something like that.
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:Or some coaches do it over the phone.
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:John: These are all bumper stickers.
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:Angie: she's fucking killing me right now.
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:Where did you go today?
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:What happened to John?
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:So
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:John: do it face to face.
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:Goodness me.
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:Angie: I can't, but do
you know what I'm saying?
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:Right?
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:Like, so, so what is your, what's
the barometer that you use?
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:John: We're not there
just to be a cheerleader.
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:The support is different.
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:It's like about holding a space
for them and creating a safe space.
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:There's there's a really beautiful book,
called Time to Think by Nancy Kline.
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:And that's all about creating a space for
people to be able to think and question.
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:And I think that's important in coaching.
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:And that's something I do feel
that I'm good at doing with people.
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:It's like, let's create a space.
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:Let's ask the questions.
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:I'm going to support you
to some degree as well.
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:I might get a little pom pom out here or
there, if that's what I think you need.
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:If I think you need a little
bit of a boost, I'm going to try
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:and give that to you as well.
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:I can't do a backflip unlike
you, Angie, although yours are
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:mostly accidental, but it's,
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:but
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:if I, if I could, I said, if
I could, I certainly would.
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:But we do want to see
you grow and develop.
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:That's the whole point of being coaching.
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:And to a degree, my experience is this.
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:Clients tend to prefer the coaches who
are more direct, who tell it like it is,
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:who are going to give them some real talk.
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:In the 1950s, they used to call
in the US, real talk was solid
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:dick, give them some solid dick.
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:Angie: What?
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:I
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:John: know I'm going to
give you some solid dick.
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:I know.
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:I love that expression.
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:But we're going to give you some real
talk, we're going to, we're going
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:to be authentic in our conversation.
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:We're willing to go deep with this.
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:But we're also checking in especially
if we can see you, but certainly if
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:we can hear, at least hear you, we're
checking into how you're doing emotionally
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:during the conversation as well.
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:Angie: You know what's interesting?
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:And this came to me just
now as you were talking.
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:I was coaching somebody.
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:I was actually in a training.
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:It wasn't an actual client of
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:mine.
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:And this is something
that I, it was a big aha.
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:It was in the last few years.
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:So it's, it wasn't at the
beginning of my coaching
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:career.
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:And it was such an
interesting perspective.
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:And , it has stuck with me forever.
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:And so we talk about not
being judgmental, right?
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:It's, and sometimes it's hard and
maybe that's a whole other session.
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:All right.
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:But in terms of how you're
coaching and what you do or say to
396
:support your client, and interestingly,
while I was having, sessions with
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:this person, like I said, it was a
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:training.
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:That we were going to a certification
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:and I said, Oh that's really great.
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:Like it was like an accountability
followup and I was like, Oh, so
402
:in this case it would be John,
that's really awesome that you
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:did that.
404
:So we went through the whole session
and at the end we had to give feedback.
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:And this person said to me, Hey
Angie, are you open to hearing some.
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:Not so positive feedback.
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:And I was like, okay.
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:And they said to me, it was a woman.
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:She said, you know what?
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:I felt judged.
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:And I was like, shocked.
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:I was like, would he be?
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:And she said, when you told
me how awesome that was.
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:You're telling me, and I looked at her,
I could remember the confused look on my
415
:face, even though I couldn't see it, I
could feel it, and I go, what do you mean,
416
:and no, and she said to me, you telling
me that I'm awesome may sound great,
417
:but it's still a judgment, you're still
judging me in a good way, and I thought,
418
:oh my goodness, that was a real moment for
419
:me.
420
:, To learn how to be careful,
because just because I was saying
421
:something like, that's awesome, or
I'm so proud of you that you did
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:that.
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:Not good, right?
424
:Not a good look, and it really takes a lot
425
:to
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:stay aware of
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:that.
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:You know what I mean?
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:Yeah.
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:John: One of the things that I like
that's helped me in my coaching was the.
431
:Learning about, mostly from Carol
Dweck's book on mindset and growth
432
:mindset and understanding that
sometimes when we give people praise,
433
:just because they've done something
is not always a good way to do it.
434
:It's actually better to
give people the praise.
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:Obviously you've worked really
hard on that, so good job.
436
:They're well done putting in all
that effort, which is something you
437
:can say, whether they win or lose.
438
:I mean, it's like you worked really
hard on that because that's really
439
:what's more important anyway.
440
:And the, something from the sort of
ancient Greeks, it was really about
441
:understanding what a real compliment is.
442
:And I forget which of the
great philosophers it was,
443
:it may be Aristotle or Plato.
444
:So it was something like that.
445
:Should brush up on my classics, but A real
compliment is a compliment on someone's
446
:character, not , Oh, you look nice.
447
:Or, Oh, that was good.
448
:Or, Oh yeah.
449
:Well done.
450
:But a real confidence is a confidence on
character because that's who they are.
451
:That's the essence of them.
452
:And that's how they're
showing up in their life.
453
:It's Hey, you, that was really virtuous.
454
:So
455
:that's a misused word these days,
but that's really, what it's about
456
:complimenting those things that
are somewhat unchangeable, that are
457
:less fleeting, that are the truth
of somebody that's more valuable.
458
:Angie: I agree.
459
:And I think that in that moment, I
realized that I was setting up or
460
:I could perhaps be setting up my
clients to be looking for my approval.
461
:And that's like way off because
nobody needs my approval who
462
:really cares what I think.
463
:You know, I have.
464
:John: Danger.
465
:yes.
466
:Angie: absolutely.
467
:Totally.
468
:And again, I wouldn't say
that it happened very often.
469
:But I wouldn't even be able to go back
all the years before this moment and I
470
:thought, oh my gosh, all right So what
do I say or what do I do differently as
471
:I move forward because I do like to be
direct But I do like to offer Some type
472
:of recognition, right?
473
:That, hey, you've done something
that was really difficult.
474
:Because I don't want it to sound cold.
475
:So that was a really tough shift for me.
476
:Because I was like, well,
now how do I do this?
477
:Be authentic, right?
478
:About whatever it is that I'm saying.
479
:Without it turning into somehow,
even if it's indirectly, creating a
480
:space where this person feels like
they need my, my praise or whatever.
481
:So, and
482
:John: but look, yeah, if that's coming
in against somebody's imposter syndrome
483
:going wild or their low self esteem,
484
:Angie: Yeah.
485
:Yeah.
486
:John: getting bounced off anyway.
487
:It's not getting through anyway,
doesn't matter how many times
488
:to, Oh, actually, you're amazing.
489
:Or no, don't listen to you.
490
:Don't listen to that voice
in your head that's saying
491
:you're not good enough as well.
492
:You can say that to your blue
in the face, but we're not
493
:actually getting dealing with it.
494
:It's just going to bounce off.
495
:He's like, you can tell someone
who thinks they're unattractive.
496
:You can tell them they're
beautiful as much as you want.
497
:They're not going to believe it until they
498
:Angie: Sure.
499
:Yeah.
500
:Yeah.
501
:So, I guess I guess
502
:The question is, I don't think
there's a right answer for the all the
503
:coaches out there new people or people
that have been in it For a minute.
504
:There's no real right way or
505
:Wrong
506
:John: probably going to get
it wrong sometimes as well.
507
:That's certainly been my experience
and sounds like yours as well.
508
:Sometimes we get it a bit wrong or we
don't get those boundaries quite right.
509
:You're going to learn those things.
510
:And unfortunately, the best way
to learn is your own experience.
511
:Angie: Yeah, definitely Definitely,
but I think it's important to decide.
512
:Once I realized that I was a coach
because we all know I didn't come into
513
:coaching It's like this is my choice.
514
:It just was there but
515
:once I was in Aware of that and then
became intentional, I thought to myself,
516
:what kind of a coach do I really wanna be?
517
:I really made that intentional
decision and it was like, I wanna get
518
:results, and how am I gonna do that?
519
:Right?
520
:Well, I'm gonna get results by being
direct and maybe, pissing people off
521
:once in a while because I've had people
come back and go, you know, Angie,
522
:you're so pissing me off right now.
523
:And I'm like, oh, tell me, you know.,
524
:John: One of my favorite coaches in
all the world, and I don't know all
525
:the coaches obviously, but one of
my favorite coaches who I do know
526
:is a lady called Carrie Wilkerson.
527
:And I admire her immensely.
528
:And I've been lucky enough to be in
coaching with her in group sessions,
529
:at least would love to have her as a
one to one coach at some point as well.
530
:But the reason that is she does
the tough love, but she does it in
531
:such a mama bear kind of way that
you feel genuinely cared about.
532
:And it's that's something that I
really strive for in my own coaching.
533
:It's I aim to be more like that.
534
:I want you to feel cared about as my
client and I want, but I also want
535
:you to feel challenged, to feel like
you're being given what you need to
536
:be able to go forward and do what you
need to do and show up for yourself.
537
:And don't just say you're going to
do stuff, which I think is one of the
538
:biggest things in coaching, right?
539
:People will say all this stuff,
but if you're not actually going
540
:out and doing it, then that's where
we have some things that you need.
541
:You maybe need those nudges, those.
542
:Encouragement to push, or the tough
love to just say, Hey, get your
543
:shit together and get on with it.
544
:Angie: Yeah, I think there's a
stylistic thing that comes through.
545
:Every day I'm in coaching, every single
day I coach people and although I might
546
:show up as Angie whoever I am as a coach.
547
:I know that every single situation
that comes to the present day,
548
:to that particular day isn't,
even though it could be familiar,
549
:it's never the same day twice.
550
:So you really have to
be able to be loving.
551
:And I do say that to people,
like I'm saying this to you
552
:with love and respect, right?
553
:I'm, I mean that, and I don't say it
as coldly as I just did as a matter of
554
:fact, but I think it's really showing up.
555
:authentically in that moment.
556
:And it's not just a rapport, you've
built the rapport, you hope, but, I think
557
:putting that human element into it is
very important because, some coaches, I
558
:think Work too hard, maybe, at keeping up.
559
:I call it that plexiglass.
560
:I can still see you, but
we're only gonna get so close.
561
:I'm, I don't really put
that up in every situation.
562
:I want them to feel connected
to me because that's how I'm
563
:creating that safe space for them.
564
:But, I understand that people listening
might feel like, are you kidding?
565
:No, you have to keep that curtain up.
566
:Not a believer in that.
567
:John: There is a space, I think
for even more provocative coaching
568
:than you and I would probably do.
569
:And for the people who perhaps.
570
:Are the ones who really just
find themselves incapable of
571
:getting up off their ass and doing
572
:something that maybe provocation is
the thing that's going to help get
573
:them there, but they still have to,
it still has to be permission based
574
:is like, you're not just going to show
up on the call and kind of get abused.
575
:And it's not even about that.
576
:It's still about taking what's in the
conversation, taking what's there, but
577
:really coloring outside the lines in
your coaching session to that degree.
578
:And that is to get specific results
from people who are either in apathy
579
:or inaction or procrastination levels
that they're just not moving at all.
580
:I think those are the cases where
you, Where poking the bear is
581
:valid and justified and still
needs to be done with permission.
582
:It's if they want to change that, if
they want to get out of it, there, you
583
:need flexibility is where you can go as
a coach to be able to help them do that
584
:because niceties are not going to do it.
585
:Uh, cheerleading, pom
poms, not going to do it.
586
:Angie: I agree.
587
:I agree.
588
:It's about striking the right balance.
589
:John: Cool.
590
:I'm, I know, I have known coaches
who are kind of mean if they're
591
:coaching and sometimes a bit rude.
592
:to the clients as well.
593
:Yes, they can still sometimes get results,
but I don't think people are generally
594
:going to want to work with them long term.
595
:And the coach client relationship
is that it is a relationship, but
596
:once it doesn't always have to be
the butterflies and candy floss.
597
:, it does need to have other el
other elements to it as well.
598
:But yeah,
599
:Angie: Yeah I definitely agree.
600
:And I, you know what, I
think it just depends.
601
:I've had some clients as I'm sitting
here reflecting, I definitely have had
602
:some clients who, what I consider to be a
little bit more of the cheerleading space.
603
:They could not handle, like
they thought that was tough.
604
:They thought that was
direct and tough coaching.
605
:And again, perception,
do you know what I mean?
606
:Like I could say cheese in my head, like
that's nowhere near tough love, right?
607
:Or tough coaching.
608
:Right.
609
:But you know, it's how the
client is receiving you and
610
:perceiving your approach.
611
:And for that reason, I think
that I've had to adjust.
612
:It's funny too, as I'm thinking
about it, and this isn't, I'm not
613
:saying it's because of this, but
what I definitely just realized
614
:is that these were younger people,
615
:right?
616
:Maybe mid to late twenties, even a
little bit into their early thirties.
617
:And they were not ready
for that kind of coaching.
618
:They were not ready for it.
619
:I did have to
620
:Put on the kid gloves a little
bit more and do that provocation
621
:from a different angle.
622
:So, yeah.
623
:Yeah.
624
:I had to be indirectly direct.
625
:Yeah, go figure that one out.
626
:But do you know what I mean?
627
:Because what I perceived as
that direct and challenging
628
:coaching, they couldn't handle it.
629
:They just couldn't handle it.
630
:John: This is probably the thing we'll
finish up on, but Part of me thinks that
631
:sometimes the tough love stuff is easier
in a group coaching setting than a one to
632
:one Because you don't need to address the
individual you can address the groups and
633
:nobody is like you're talking Just to me.
634
:They were like, oh you're
kind of talking to all of us.
635
:We're not alone in this It's
like there's not it's not I'm
636
:not being singled out here.
637
:I'm not being picked on Sometimes I
think that those tough love messages
638
:can be more Impactful in group
settings that's one of my perspectives.
639
:Angie: I just want to ask
you a quick question on that.
640
:I know we're going to wrap up, but so
in the one to one space, if you, cause
641
:I hear what you're saying about how
it's easier to make this An overarching
642
:message in a group coaching scenario.
643
:But in that one to one, have
you ever used the word we?
644
:And I mean, and we meaning sometimes we
as human beings get lost in whatever.
645
:I've done that, right?
646
:So that it's not like I'm pointing
the finger and I'm saying we're
647
:all imperfect and I will use that.
648
:Yeah.
649
:John: and stories.
650
:Yeah, absolutely.
651
:Because sometimes it's not the best
way to just get direct on them and
652
:say, this is what you need to do,
or this is where you're going wrong.
653
:It's that's not really necessarily
helpful and it's possibly not really
654
:what you're there for as a coach as well.
655
:So, yeah, I think you can make the pills
go down with a bit of a spoonful of sugar
656
:by just by allowing a bit of detachment
and those bit of pills can be swallowed.
657
:so so yeah,
658
:I'm, I'm ready for my Disney marathon now.
659
:But yeah, you we get that.
660
:Angie: Great
661
:perspective today,
662
:John: you know, it's
been a fun conversation.
663
:I wonder what we'll talk about next,
664
:Angie: Yeah, me too.
665
:John: but we will we'll be back.
666
:We'll be talking more about what
goes on in the coaching sessions.
667
:And of course, the business of
coaching, if you have questions for
668
:us, or if you have input on what we've
been talking about, if you'd like
669
:to add to the conversation, or if
you think you'd be a great guest for
670
:us to invite on the show, then let
671
:us.
672
:know contact us.
673
:Leave us a voicemail.
674
:You can do that at speakpipe.
675
:com forward slash the
coaching clinic podcast.
676
:You'll find the link for
us in the show notes.
677
:You can leave us a quick voicemail there.
678
:And if we like it, we might
just feature you on the show.
679
:We'll be back next week.
680
:Same time, same place with more
fun coaching conversations.
681
:We'll look forward to seeing you there.
682
:Angie: Take care.