Co-dependant Clients and Saviour Complexes in Coaching

John: 00:00:00

Angie,

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Angie: John,

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John: I've got a big decision to make.

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I don't know what to do.

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Angie: what's the big decision?

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John: I don't know who to vote for

in the Eurovision Song Contest.

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Angie: In the what?

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John: The Eurovision Song Contest, but

all the European countries and Australia

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for some reason compete to win a trophy.

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Angie: Oh, John, I don't

think anyone cares.

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John: Angie, the gays care, the gays care.

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Let's start the show.

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Angie, we've been talking about

approaching this topic for a while.

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It's been on our list of ones to get to.

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And today we're going to have a bit

of chat about codependent clients.

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and coaches with saviour complexes.

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Interesting topic.

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And I have some personal

experience of this.

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On both sides of having codependent

clients and having a bit of that

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saviour complex going on, certainly

in my early days of coaching.

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And it took me a while, but what,

where do you stand with this though?

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Have you had some experience as well?

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Angie: Oh, gosh.

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, yes, I definitely have.

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I think the savior complex, like

yourself, I definitely experienced

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earlier on, but tell me, I would

love to hear your perspective.

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So tell me about one of the times

that you've won of, cause I'm assuming

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there's a couple, but where you

had felt that or experienced that.

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This way, cause I think there's a lot

of people listening that are like, what

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the hell does that, I can kind of figure

it out, but what does that even mean?

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John: Sure.

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Okay.

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So, here's a situation I found myself

in, in my very early days, I was one

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of my very first paying clients as

a coach and really liked her, super

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nice client and professional woman

and really wanted to make some life

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changes and some working on some growth.

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It was pretty general stuff, I suppose.

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Where we found ourselves getting was.

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She would be this is in days

before text messaging, God, I'm

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old but she, I would be getting

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Angie: he's talking smoke signals folks.

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Sorry, go ahead.

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John: not far off voicemails.

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So I'd be getting voicemails, I'd be

getting emails from her and sometimes

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quite sort of late in the day

phone calls that, what should I do?

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What should I do?

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This situation has come

up, what should I do?

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Got to even a point where like at first

I thought this was just one of those

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things with coaching And then at some

point I started realizing the things

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that she was calling me out for decisions

She's making or decisions that she

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should be able to make by herself And

what was I doing intervening in these

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kinds of decisions that she was making?

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Not that I was telling her what to do.

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I was trying to go, well, what

do you think you should do?

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What's good?

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What are your options here?

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Which one's most attractive?

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It was all that kind of thing.

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But I should not have been

that available to the client.

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I know that part of the reason why I

was doing it is because I felt it was

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my responsibility to fix my client.

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And that I could do that as a

coach, I could fix my clients

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and be like their savior.

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I could be their Superman

and fly in and save the day.

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That was pretty much what I had in

my head and that situation and a few

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other things really woke me up to,

okay, it's not my job to fix them.

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And this is unhealthy.

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That's what first thought.

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This is unhealthy that they're

calling me or feel that they can

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contact me anytime to ask me.

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Sometimes just stupid questions

that they should be able to

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figure out for themselves.

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Angie: So I think there's

layers to what you just shared.

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I don't think I ever experienced

the, Hey, I am available.

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I think I always set boundaries and

that was just from my previous life

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of I needed to have the me, like I

needed to separate myself because.

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I used to make the joke in my

corporate life and say, Oh, there's

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no MD at the end of my last name.

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There's no emergency.

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So I think that carried over, but

I definitely think I had a I was

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going to use the word insane, but

I think that's appropriate for it.

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But I definitely had this kind

of like you, I felt like I wasn't

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doing my job if I couldn't fix them.

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And I don't know how long I sat in

that space, but I could remember coming

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into sessions and being disappointed

if they didn't feel better, right?

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If they didn't move past the whatever,

fill in the blank, whatever the

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challenge of the day, the challenge

of the week was And I don't know

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how long that lasted for me, but it

was definitely the wrong mindset.

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Of course I came into it with

my heart I want them to move

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forward, I want them to grow.

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But then, I think, again, I was taking

it back upon myself and taking that

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responsibility that it was my job to

do that, which there might be people

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listening going, well, hell, you're

the coach, it was your job, but

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not in the way that I was doing it.

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Right.

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John: We talked to previous on show

that I had gotten into doing more NLP

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kind of stuff as well, so I was doing

a lot of NP therapy work with people,

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and in that particular, very much

felt that it was my responsibility

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to fix my client's problems.

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To solve their issues for them,

because that is essentially

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what they're paying me for.

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They're paying me to solve

their problem for them.

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Like, I need to stop smoking,

help me stop smoking, or I,

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I've got an obsessive compulsive

disorder, help me get out of that.

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Whatever it was I thought,

oh, NLP could help them.

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I can heal them.

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I can cure them, for want of a

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Angie: You're putting your hands on

their head and being like, you're healed.

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Not really though, right?

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John: been an interesting, we could go

super deep on this, interestingly enough,

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because my, my opinions of now are sort

of NLP and hypnosis is that it's not

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something really that you do to someone.

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It's something that you help

people do for themselves.

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Even then, like hypnosis is something

that somebody has to elect to that.

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If you don't want to go into a trance,

you're not going to go into a trance.

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You have to put yourself in the trance.

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You have to give yourself permission to

be responsive and to trust the person

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who's guiding you on that journey.

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And so I'd like to say also

all hypnosis is self hypnosis.

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To some degree all coaching

is self coaching as well.

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That you want to get people in a position

where they can figure out what to do for

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themselves because it's not coaching.

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If I tell you what to do

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Angie (2): Well, we had that conversation

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eleven where it's like, Hey,

what's the difference between being

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consulted, being a consultant, a coach.

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And I think that the mindset really should

be, you're not there to fix anybody.

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We're not there to fix anybody.

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We're really there to.

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Heighten awareness and show people the

way show them that there is a forward and

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not a stock and that i'm not the end all

because we're not supposed to keep clients

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forever I will say to you I have some

clients that i've had for five seven years

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now eight years even and the beauty of the

work that i'm doing with them is that we

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can myself and that client can look back

and say, wow, look at the journey, right?

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We're not just having expensive

cups of coffee, right?

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There's actual movement.

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There's actual application of

the work that we're doing that

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they're putting into their lives.

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Now, I don't know how long I'll have

those people as clients, but for now

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the work is working so it's ongoing.

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But the idea isn't to.

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Do that forever, not for me anyway

maybe there's people out there that

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are like I want the clients for life.

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It's a whole different episode

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John: Yeah, I, yeah, maybe that

is something we need to get to at

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another episode, but I know for me,

I, growing up, I very much wanted

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to be a person of significance.

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Yeah.

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I used to read.

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I used to read a lot of comic books.

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I love super still do love all

the superhero stuff Yes, I and you

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can if you can see my background.

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There's a picture of superman right

behind me There's another wall.

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There's wonder woman.

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I've got doctor here and goodness day

to us I still love all that stuff But I

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also had bought into wanting to be that

like I think I really wanted to be Spider

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man when I was growing up or the flash.

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It was another, as I

wanted to be a superhero.

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And I think I brought some of that

with me still into my adult life as a

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coach or thinking, coaching to some

degrees is kind of a superpower and all

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the NLP stuff feels like superpowers.

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It feels like stuff that

not everyone can do.

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And not saying I've got like power

hungry or anything like that with it.

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But I definitely felt that

it gave me some significance.

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And so there was a degree to which

I bought into that and was partly

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responsible for allowing those dependency

situations to arise and to continue,

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because I didn't draw the boundaries.

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Part of me wanted that.

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Part of me wanted people looking up to

me and putting me on that sort of, Oh,

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you saved my life kind of pedestal,

and it was like, that's not healthy.

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And then that's not something we want.

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Angie: what was let me ask you though,

but let me ask you this I think

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this is really important for people

listening What was the turning point?

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Where did you or how did you find

that awareness where you were like?

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Oh, wait a minute.

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This isn't healthy There is

a different way to do this.

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What was that turning point for you?

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John: that I should not be in

a position where I'm making

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decisions for other people.

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That they are perfectly

capable of making themselves.

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I shouldn't be there for somebody else.

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To have to tell them what to

do, that they, that I recognized

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how disempowering that was.

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And I think that was the thing of coaching

is supposed to be about empowering

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your clients, not disempowering them.

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And so, there was a way covered.

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It wasn't just the one client.

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There were other things that, there

were boundary issues with a few other

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clients I had, that I had to recognize.

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And I also had some of those boundary

issues with a few friends as well.

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I have to tell you, it didn't take me very

long to start putting boundaries in place.

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I had to, unfortunately, stop working

with those clients because I couldn't

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fix the damage that had been done.

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I'd already created an unhealthy client

relationship and I couldn't pull it back.

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I didn't know how to at that stage.

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Maybe I could now, but At that

time, I didn't know how to do that.

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So the

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Angie: I think that's really, wow,

that's like a super wow moment.

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I don't think a lot of people

could honestly admit to

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saying, hey, you know what?

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This was definitely not the right

approach and it, and I love, love

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that you said, like you created

that, I disempowered them, right?

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And I realized that I should

be doing the opposite of that.

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That's huge.

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I'm bowing.

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That's a great acknowledgement.

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I have to say.

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John: I appreciate that.

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It didn't feel so good at the time.

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I have to tell you I felt pretty rotten.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I felt rotten at the time.

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I had to take the go cap in hand to

my clients and say, look, I haven't

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served you very well here as a coach.

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I'm responsible for having

created this situation and here's

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why it's not serving you or me.

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Yeah, that was hard, but it was important

and it was the right thing to do.

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And I'm very, I'm very big on my ethics.

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I'm very, I like to be a very

responsible operator and that

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didn't feel responsible to me.

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So yeah when things switched for me I

think I also recognized one of my best

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friends wanted me to coach her and I

said, look, we can do a bit of coaching,

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but then I could see that whole pedestal

thing coming up there as well as like,

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no, the boundaries aren't right here.

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It's not going to work.

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I still, yeah, you still see

these situations, but when

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you're in it it's tough.

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It's tough to sometimes admit

to ourselves as well, that I'm

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partly responsible for this.

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But it's absolutely essential

in my development as a coach

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I fixed those boundaries.

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I had to fix the boundaries

with some friends.

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It cost me a few friendships,

not, thankfully none of my

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closest friends they got it.

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But clients, yeah, it certainly

cost me a few clients.

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It cost me a bit of maybe a bit of

self esteem, but in the long run,

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Angie: Yeah.

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John: for it.

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Yeah.

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Angie: think that, sometimes we put, too

much pressure on ourselves that we have

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to get it absolutely right every time.

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When you're in a coaching call

that is being run organically,

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I'm going to say this, you have

no idea what's about to happen.

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You have no idea really what's going

to come up because you know what, when

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I set intention or when I have caught

myself setting too much, I'm going to

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emphasize too much intention around

a session that would throw me off.

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And honestly, It's like, okay, let me

take a step back and let me, oh, I still

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need to be the guide, the pace car,

if you will, but I need to let this

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start to flow organically and not set

an expectation because that's not fair.

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Now.

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That can definitely create a little

bit of the floor moving kind of thing

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in the funhouse because You know,

or maybe you touched upon topics or

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pain points for clients And maybe

them coming into the next session or

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two or three is an avoidance, right?

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They come up with other things

consciously or not To avoid that.

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So you as the coach, I think still need

to pay attention, but I really, I just do.

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I feel like that, setting too much,

there's that fine line of setting

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the intention around the session.

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I think the only intention that

I allow myself to set now is that

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I need to remain open, right?

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I need to still be aware bird's eye

view of what's going on, but at the

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same time, I need to remain open.

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I'm still sitting here

thinking about times where,

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and I'm laughing out loud to myself going,

Oh, maybe it happened more than I thought.

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But not where it was telling

people what to do, but giving

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them too much of the what ifs.

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Cause then I thought if I'm just

giving them options and I'm opening

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up that door for them, I'm still doing

well and getting a little too deep.

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So you can still ask.

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So what if you did this?

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Okay.

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Or what if it was different?

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What would that look like?

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That's a different question than

saying what if you did a B or C?

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Because again, still setting

them up for a reliance, right?

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Instead of them saying, okay, let

me ask myself the big, the million

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dollar question in this scenario.

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So I think that dependency, that

codependency can absolutely creep in easy.

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It's like slick, slippery slope.

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John: There's an attractiveness

to it as well from a coach's side.

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This is one of the reasons why I think

I have a very deep fascination with

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the tools of influence and persuasion.

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And and I've spent a lot of time

educating myself on those and still do

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as I still try and read and learn as much

as possible because it's fascinating.

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But I could see the appeal of

being that sort of guru figure.

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The person is like, I rely on them.

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They had, they're the

person with all the answers.

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Whereas now I am where I am wary as

hell about anyone who sets themselves

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up in that kind of position because

nobody does have all the answers and

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nobody is so perfect or knowledgeable

to that they know everything or that

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they can give you all the right answers

that there is no one person in all

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of history who has that regard and

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Angie: I agree.

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Listen.

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Yeah.

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John: but it's true, it's true

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Angie (2): Well, think of it this way.

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I think that it comes up or it can

come up even for an experienced coach.

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When we have a difficult client, right?

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Somebody who just isn't seeing movement

and they start up more frustrated and

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maybe they, again, the scenarios can

vary, after several sessions of somebody

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not making any kind of movement, you

really have to step back as a coach

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and say, am I challenging enough?

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Are they avoiding it?

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You have to really dive in.

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And I think it's interesting

because I, from the very beginning,

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we talked about this, right?

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When we have that first call and

I ask people, why are you here?

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What kind of coaching

do you think you want?

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Because I want to get an idea of

the picture, vision that they have

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now, that doesn't mean I'm going to

step into that and be like, Oh, let

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me be this, let me fill the mold.

314

: 00:16:50

That's not it.

315

: 00:16:51

But I need to understand.

316

: 00:16:53

What their perspective of what a

coach should be doing for them.

317

: 00:16:58

So if that's not in alignment at the

beginning right at the beginning I

318

: 00:17:01

either just state that or I say hey,

this is who I am and what I do I

319

: 00:17:05

don't think we're a good fit, right?

320

: 00:17:07

That's that's a tough truth at

the very beginning is to turn away

321

: 00:17:10

a client and say hey Perhaps you

know John is a better fit for you.

322

: 00:17:15

Have at it But knowing that, knowing

that as you're progressing through the

323

: 00:17:20

timeline of this journey with them I

think it's really important to be able to

324

: 00:17:25

stay true to getting I guess I'm getting

a little in the weeds here, but I'm I'm

325

: 00:17:29

envisioning this, I'm envisioning this

process, and I'm seeing times in my career

326

: 00:17:34

where You know, it was not easy because

I let the client maybe run the show a

327

: 00:17:43

little bit too much, you know what I mean?

328

: 00:17:46

Instead keeping my hands on the wheel, I

let go for a little bit and said, here.

329

: 00:17:52

And that has, I wouldn't say

gotten me into trouble, but it's

330

: 00:17:56

definitely Warranted some reflection

331

: 00:17:58

.

John: Yeah, I appreciate that.

332

: 00:18:00

Do you know what here's where

else it cropped up for me as well.

333

: 00:18:03

Noticing that the boundary stuff was

so important here was finding myself in

334

: 00:18:09

situations like if you are the person

that has the answers for your clients.

335

: 00:18:14

What do you do in those times when

you don't have the answer for them?

336

: 00:18:17

And so, you know, I was talking before

like I had a, one particular client it

337

: 00:18:20

was a bit of a nightmare client situation

for me and all sorts of problems came up

338

: 00:18:23

because of this but there was an element

to which her expectation was that I could

339

: 00:18:28

fix her maybe some part of me thought

that I could and so she was coming back

340

: 00:18:34

week after week not taking any action

not doing any of the things that she said

341

: 00:18:37

she wanted to do and coming to me for

answers as to why that wasn't happening.

342

: 00:18:44

And I was trying to fill that void of

343

: 00:18:46

answers, like again pulling,

stuff out my butt, trying to

344

: 00:18:50

come up with answers for her.

345

: 00:18:51

But okay.

346

: 00:18:52

And week after week, the same thing

again and again, until it got to a point

347

: 00:18:55

where it's like, enough's enough here.

348

: 00:18:56

Like, if you're not going to take

action, why are we doing this?

349

: 00:19:00

Led to all sorts of problems beyond that

which I've talked about maybe before, but

350

: 00:19:03

just unhealthy, unworkable, unrealistic.

351

: 00:19:06

Unless you actually want to be a cult

leader, even if it's a cult of two people,

352

: 00:19:12

Angie: don't know that about me?

353

: 00:19:13

No, I'm joking.

354

: 00:19:15

I'm sorry.

355

: 00:19:16

Go ahead.

356

: 00:19:17

John: You can have a cult

of one person in your cult.

357

: 00:19:19

You know, it's like your coaching client.

358

: 00:19:21

It could be your partner.

359

: 00:19:22

It could be, if you are exerting undue

influence over someone else and they

360

: 00:19:28

are allowing you to do that, or even

giving you permission to do that.

361

: 00:19:31

It's a cult situation because you are

maybe controlling their information.

362

: 00:19:36

You're controlling their decisions.

363

: 00:19:37

You're somebody controlling

their emotional output.

364

: 00:19:40

You're controlling how they spend their

time or who even who they associate

365

: 00:19:43

with that starts to look like a cult.

366

: 00:19:46

And so yeah, this is something

we should be very, very wary of.

367

: 00:19:50

Nobody should be putting themselves

in that position where you are trying

368

: 00:19:53

to fill the void for other people.

369

: 00:19:55

or responsible for having the answers

for them because it will never be fully

370

: 00:20:00

satisfactory and you do end up in a

situation where you are exerting power

371

: 00:20:06

and undue influence over someone else.

372

: 00:20:09

Angie: you know, it's

interesting and I Agree with you.

373

: 00:20:14

It's interesting.

374

: 00:20:15

I was thinking about those times when

you finish up a round of coaching

375

: 00:20:19

with a client and it's time to decide

whether they should move forward

376

: 00:20:24

or whether it's time to pluck them

out of the nest kind of a thing.

377

: 00:20:28

And I've had many occasions where I've

had people say to me, Oh my gosh, Angie,

378

: 00:20:36

what am I going to do without you?

379

: 00:20:38

And then I have a session around that

and go wait a minute, what do you mean?

380

: 00:20:43

Let's talk about that.

381

: 00:20:44

Because I think sometimes, it's an

initial mindset, that once they get

382

: 00:20:50

out of it, once they get over that

piece, they'll be like, it's okay.

383

: 00:20:53

It's like having your

favorite teacher in school.

384

: 00:20:55

I don't want to leave.

385

: 00:20:55

I remember crying.

386

: 00:20:57

They were great.

387

: 00:20:57

Mrs.

388

: 00:20:57

Klein cried.

389

: 00:20:58

I didn't want to leave her.

390

: 00:20:59

She was amazing.

391

: 00:21:00

But that didn't mean I was

going to sit in third grade

392

: 00:21:03

for the rest of my life either.

393

: 00:21:05

Although there are some that might

say you should have stayed there.

394

: 00:21:08

You're still too silly for us.

395

: 00:21:09

But no, but seriously, so it's really

that gauge of saying wait a second.

396

: 00:21:13

Why would you say that?

397

: 00:21:14

Why do you think you made me?

398

: 00:21:16

And then sometimes at the end of that

conversation, it's just you know what?

399

: 00:21:19

I've really so valued the work we've done.

400

: 00:21:23

And honestly too, if I get to that point

when I have that conversation, if I

401

: 00:21:27

don't have a clear vision for what can

be next for them, I cannot work with

402

: 00:21:33

them and I might say, you know what,

go take three, six months, even a year.

403

: 00:21:38

Go do the things.

404

: 00:21:40

And if you want to come and do

coaching, you want to come back to

405

: 00:21:42

coaching, then come back because

there, there's the empowerment.

406

: 00:21:46

That's what makes you a great

coach is being able to illustrate

407

: 00:21:51

to your clients that, they've

made some really great progress.

408

: 00:21:55

Now, There are definitely moments

where it takes some clients longer to

409

: 00:21:59

start allowing the onion to peel back.

410

: 00:22:02

So maybe it's not until several

sessions in that you start to do

411

: 00:22:06

some heavy lifting, heavy work.

412

: 00:22:08

And you might want to then of

course continue because there's

413

: 00:22:10

specific work to be done.

414

: 00:22:12

Momentum is now in place

and you want to do that.

415

: 00:22:15

But I also know, and

I'm going to say this.

416

: 00:22:18

Sorry, I'm not going to mention any names,

but I know of coaches that create that

417

: 00:22:25

urgency to get people to sign back up.

418

: 00:22:29

And I think that's shit.

419

: 00:22:30

I really do.

420

: 00:22:30

I think that's really shitty.

421

: 00:22:32

I don't think it's fair.

422

: 00:22:33

And I guess it's why sometimes it's

like in any profession, people go I

423

: 00:22:37

spent 40, 000 and I'm still not better.

424

: 00:22:41

John: That's what, yeah, that's

what we're talking about, right?

425

: 00:22:43

I mean that this is partly why some people

have so much shit about sales, isn't it?

426

: 00:22:47

Is that they think some look, some people

think that's what sales is, getting people

427

: 00:22:51

to buy something that they don't really

want through emotional manipulation.

428

: 00:22:55

And sometimes that happens,

but that's not sales.

429

: 00:22:58

That's a con.

430

: 00:22:59

This is not sales.

431

: 00:23:01

Sales should be about service.

432

: 00:23:02

Like giving people, helping people get

what they actually do want or get to

433

: 00:23:06

the right service and products for them.

434

: 00:23:07

If not, you've been essentially

you've run into a confidence trickster

435

: 00:23:11

otherwise, and that's not what sales

is supposed to be about and it's not.

436

: 00:23:16

It's not what coaching is supposed to be

about, like if you have to emotionally

437

: 00:23:19

manipulate your clients and put them into

such a negative state of mind, get them

438

: 00:23:24

feeling super upset and even distressed

about their problems or get them feeling

439

: 00:23:27

so super high about things that they can't

really think and make rational decisions.

440

: 00:23:33

I'm not sure that that's

completely ethical.

441

: 00:23:35

No, I've never liked that as well.

442

: 00:23:37

That's why I was backed away from a lot

of the personal development industry

443

: 00:23:41

because there's a lot of that goes on.

444

: 00:23:43

Angie: yeah, I think that's

the key, personal development,

445

: 00:23:47

development is the key.

446

: 00:23:50

And again, I'm not saying that I never

have situations come up where I can see

447

: 00:23:56

the reliance building, in a maybe not

so healthy way with a client, but now

448

: 00:24:02

I have the experience to identify that.

449

: 00:24:05

Relatively quickly and then I shift

away from it, I've had people say to

450

: 00:24:09

me, I sent you an email last night

at 11 o'clock and I was really having

451

: 00:24:12

a bad time and you didn't answer.

452

: 00:24:14

I was like, yeah, because I was sleeping.

453

: 00:24:16

You know, like, it maybe then it's time to

like reassess or, revisit the conversation

454

: 00:24:22

about what the boundaries look like.

455

: 00:24:23

But,

456

: 00:24:24

John: Yeah.

457

: 00:24:25

I've had those, I've had client situations

where , I had clients who were expecting

458

: 00:24:30

results just because they had a coach.

459

: 00:24:32

Angie: yeah, oh,

460

: 00:24:33

yeah.

461

: 00:24:34

Yeah.

462

: 00:24:34

John: like, it didn't really

matter so much what we were

463

: 00:24:36

actually doing in the sessions.

464

: 00:24:37

They go out and be one of those.

465

: 00:24:39

Keys to success thing is have

a coach, have a good coach.

466

: 00:24:42

Great, but that's only going to help

you if you actually do the work still.

467

: 00:24:46

It's not,

468

: 00:24:47

Angie: Yes.

469

: 00:24:48

John: it's are you going to get fit just

because you've got a gym membership?

470

: 00:24:51

No, you still have to go and do the work.

471

: 00:24:53

He said to himself, but that's the,

that's the reality of it, right?

472

: 00:24:58

Uh, we still, we still have to put

in, we still have to put in the hours.

473

: 00:25:02

We still have to put in

the effort and the energy.

474

: 00:25:04

But I can see the attractiveness

from a coaching perspective.

475

: 00:25:08

Many people come into coaching

because they have stuff that

476

: 00:25:10

they need to deal with as well.

477

: 00:25:12

Maybe that was partly true for me.

478

: 00:25:14

We want to improve ourselves.

479

: 00:25:15

We recognize there are things that

pass on going as well in our lives.

480

: 00:25:18

And sometimes we come into it because we

generally do want to help other people.

481

: 00:25:22

But if you do have, there's some self

esteem issues, some self confidence

482

: 00:25:25

issues and stuff like that, and somebody

is looking to you for all the answers.

483

: 00:25:29

And you suddenly become this point

of massive importance in their lives.

484

: 00:25:34

I can see the attraction, the significance

of that, but just know if that's clicking

485

: 00:25:39

up any triggers for anybody, this is not a

healthy situation for you or your clients.

486

: 00:25:44

And so it's going to be important to

start to address that in some way and

487

: 00:25:48

hold the mirror up and say, Is this

really the right way to go forward?

488

: 00:25:51

That there is a better way.

489

: 00:25:52

And replay this conversation and

figure out your path forward.

490

: 00:25:56

With some healthier boundaries.

491

: 00:25:59

Angie: Yeah.

492

: 00:25:59

Yeah.

493

: 00:25:59

Yeah.

494

: 00:25:59

Yeah.

495

: 00:26:00

I definitely think that

that's a big part of it.

496

: 00:26:02

And I, which is maybe even

a whole different a whole

497

: 00:26:05

different session for us.

498

: 00:26:07

But, I'm not saying that we all have

to, because it's ridiculous, right?

499

: 00:26:11

A lot of people, I think, put

us on a bit of a pedestal.

500

: 00:26:14

You have it all figured out and

dialed in every minute of the day.

501

: 00:26:19

If you all saw what I look like

right now on this podcast, John

502

: 00:26:22

and I are sitting here on video and

503

: 00:26:24

I was running late.

504

: 00:26:25

Yep.

505

: 00:26:26

He has to look at it.

506

: 00:26:27

My hair is still bed head.

507

: 00:26:28

You know drinking my first cup

of coffee because I'm imperfect.

508

: 00:26:32

I overslept and guess what I came in

I owned it and said sorry John most

509

: 00:26:36

people don't see me like this here.

510

: 00:26:38

You are though Okay, the point that i'm

making is that we are still all human just

511

: 00:26:43

because we're coaches or if I'm a doctor,

it doesn't mean I don't bleed, right?

512

: 00:26:47

It's the same kind of scenario.

513

: 00:26:49

And sometimes we get into coaching

specifically or spaces where,

514

: 00:26:54

we're, there's things of our

own coming up and it's virtually

515

: 00:26:58

impossible for that not to happen.

516

: 00:27:00

But I think that we have to be

trained enough mentally aware enough

517

: 00:27:06

to be able to say wait a minute

Is this my issue or their issue?

518

: 00:27:09

It has happened.

519

: 00:27:11

That's just a reality because

we're human first always

520

: 00:27:15

John: it's, it's an interesting

thing and it good there.

521

: 00:27:16

They don't wanna go in into the

weeds or often too many tangents.

522

: 00:27:19

But I'm very aware that some of

the people who we most respect

523

: 00:27:22

and admire the world, we tend to.

524

: 00:27:24

idolize them and wash away

their imperfections, but they

525

: 00:27:28

are still imperfect people.

526

: 00:27:30

And then the thing they say about not

meeting your heroes, it's I think it's

527

: 00:27:33

fine to meet your heroes , so long

as you have the approach of everyone

528

: 00:27:37

is human and everyone has issues or

challenges or shit they have to deal with.

529

: 00:27:42

And sometimes people have good days.

530

: 00:27:44

Sometimes people have bad days.

531

: 00:27:45

They are all human.

532

: 00:27:47

No one is above it all.

533

: 00:27:48

And so when you meet, I used to meet

a lot of celebrities in my airline

534

: 00:27:52

days, and some of them were fantastic

and some of them not, but I don't know

535

: 00:27:56

if they were just having a bad day.

536

: 00:27:57

I don't know if they were just being

an a hole because, because that's

537

: 00:28:01

how, what their personality is,

or if it was just like on the day.

538

: 00:28:04

And so I can't say whether it was

good or bad to meet them or not.

539

: 00:28:08

Might have changed some of my opinions

of them, but I've never really held

540

: 00:28:11

someone in the sort of level of

esteem where I think that they are

541

: 00:28:15

beyond the beyond reproach where

there's really nothing we could say,

542

: 00:28:19

Oh, they do everything perfectly.

543

: 00:28:21

Nobody is like that.

544

: 00:28:22

And we shouldn't ever think that they are.

545

: 00:28:25

Angie: Well, and we shouldn't

set an expectation for ourselves

546

: 00:28:27

as coaches for that either.

547

: 00:28:29

We're allowed to be imperfect.

548

: 00:28:30

We're allowed to learn and grow.

549

: 00:28:32

That's why we call it a coaching.

550

: 00:28:33

I call it a coaching practice because I'm

like I'm different than I was a year ago

551

: 00:28:37

and the year before that and 20 years ago.

552

: 00:28:39

And and I allow for that

space, but disallowing people

553

: 00:28:43

to become overly reliant.

554

: 00:28:46

On me, that is definitely

something that I actively work on.

555

: 00:28:52

With all of my clients

556

: 00:28:56

John: There we go.

557

: 00:28:56

I think we might have

just fixed this issue.

558

: 00:28:58

May,

559

: 00:28:59

Angie: There he is

560

: 00:29:01

John: Maybe the UN should hire us and send

us out as a worldwide peacekeeping force,

561

: 00:29:05

because we can just solve everything.

562

: 00:29:06

Right.

563

: 00:29:07

Angie: Oh my gosh, you don't want me to be

a peacekeeper i'm too opinionated Just you

564

: 00:29:13

John: and it wouldn't be right.

565

: 00:29:13

Anyway.

566

: 00:29:14

Yeah.

567

: 00:29:14

But it's so ho Hopefully the conversation

has been valuable to you and you get.

568

: 00:29:18

Certainly I hope it, if it has touched a

few nerves about, all right, those healthy

569

: 00:29:22

boundaries with clients, it's worth

examining that even if you're not sure

570

: 00:29:26

take a good honest look and ask yourself,

are you genuinely empowering your clients

571

: 00:29:30

or are you maybe allowing yourself to feel

good because your clients really need you

572

: 00:29:34

Angie: I

573

: 00:29:35

John: maybe make some new and

different decisions for that.

574

: 00:29:38

I've enjoyed this conversation,

Angie, how about you?

575

: 00:29:40

Angie: all of our conversations . I do

576

: 00:29:43

I

577

: 00:29:44

John: I did.

578

: 00:29:45

I do too.

579

: 00:29:45

Shall we come back and

do it again next week?

580

: 00:29:47

Angie: I think that's a definite.

581

: 00:29:48

Yes.

582

: 00:29:49

John: Definitely.

583

: 00:29:50

Yes.

584

: 00:29:50

But in the meantime, if you have a

message for us, whether you have some

585

: 00:29:53

opinions on what we talked about today

or topics that you'd like us to cover or

586

: 00:29:56

coaching situations that you don't know

how to deal with, leave us a voicemail.

587

: 00:30:00

You can contact us at speakpipe.

588

: 00:30:03

com.

589

: 00:30:03

That's S P E A K P I P E speakpipe.

590

: 00:30:06

com forward slash The coaching

clinic podcast, leave us your coaching

591

: 00:30:10

questions, comments, and concerns.

592

: 00:30:11

You can find the link in the show notes.

593

: 00:30:14

If your message is really good, we

might just speak to you on the show,

594

: 00:30:18

but that's it for us for today.

595

: 00:30:19

And we will be back next time with

more from the coaching clinic.

596

: 00:30:22

So see you then.

597

: 00:30:23

Angie: Bye.

598

: 00:30:23

Bye