Coaching Beyond Perceptions of Success: What If Your Client Is More Successful Than You?

Angie: 00:00:00

John,

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John: Angie,

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Angie: how do you feel about coaching

people who are more successful than you?

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John: Who's more successful than me.

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Angie: Do you need a list?

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John: Oh, that's just hurtful.

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Angie: Daww, do you think you can

recover whilst we run the intro?

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John: Yeah, I'll be okay.

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Angie: All right, good.

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Let's start the show.

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All right.

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So seriously, I think that at some point,

every coach that is out there, even

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if it's somebody that's just starting

out, I think every single person, We'll

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come across somebody that we perceive

to be more successful than us in life.

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And Obviously, we're talking about it,

so I had an experience, or several,

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where that has come up for me.

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Has it come up for you?

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Have you ever felt like that?

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John: A bunch of times.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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Probably not as strangely, not so much

in my earlier coaching days, but they

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actually come up more, I would say

more, more in the last five years.

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Angie: That is so interesting

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John: that seem unusual or

maybe that's just where I've

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had been able to notice it more.

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Angie: Well, let me ask you, though.

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Is it because you're exposed?

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This is an interesting

thought that just came to me.

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Do you think it's because you're

now exposed to higher level people?

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More of them?

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John: yeah, I think that's a lot of it.

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A lot of the people I was

coaching in my earlier days of

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coaching or just flat broke.

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And so that, but that I would say there

were a handful who were successful in many

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ways in their businesses and other things.

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And I.

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Didn't really feel threatened

by it because they weren't in

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the same areas that I was in.

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So I guess I did not really relate to it.

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It's yeah, maybe they were more successful

in their business results, but it was

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probably only the last five years or so

that I really started coaching people

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who were in similar areas to me, who were

sometimes much further ahead than I was.

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Angie: that's so interesting because

I think it comes back to our I'm going

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deep, early, I'm hitting it, but I

feel like there's this perception of

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success and I think that everybody has

a belief system or some, something like

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that that defines success for them.

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So it could be in terms of

income, somebody who makes.

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A certain amount of money or more, but

it also could be the actual career.

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So my first experience with that was with

a client that actually worked for NASA.

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Yeah.

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and they weren't just an

administrator or something.

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They were an engineer.

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I remember thinking before the

call wow, this person is really,

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clearly super intelligent.

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And, no offense, because I think I'm

pretty smart, but I'm not NASA smart.

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Just being honest, right?

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And that intimidated me.

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John: because you don't know how things

are going to go, or you don't know if

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someone is going to turn around and say I

don't think you understand what you think

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you understand or something like that.

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It's like

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Angie: Gone.

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John: Those things I guess those

things are always possible.

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I have had situations with coaches where

they've said something that I was like,

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yeah, that's not true or that's not right.

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So that has come up weirdly

but it's never come up for me

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on a coaching call as a coach.

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This is bowing to my own

greatness here, but it just

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hasn't, it just hasn't happened.

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But I have had a lot of fear about

coaching people particularly people

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who may be either quite well known.

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Or at least well known in industry

or people who I know just 'cause I

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know their business and know them are

how I would say I would define them

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as being more successful than me.

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Angie: Yeah.

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So I think that's the first

space is like, what do you even

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consider to be success, right?

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And then here's the question

though, why does it matter, right?

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If they're, if, and this is

what it boiled down to for me.

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So if they are more successful, does

that mean I am not able to coach

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them?

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John: Here.

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Angie: Cause we're all human first.

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And really that was probably the lesson

for me was that like wait a minute.

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I don't really care other than,

I Jesus himself coming down and

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saying, Hey, I need some coaching.

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I might be a little

intimidated, but I'm joking.

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I'm making a little joke there.

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Don't get offended and don't come at me.

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I'm just saying

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You know?

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John: I, I know, I know

exactly what you mean.

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And

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I look at it from that sports perspective,

and I know you like a good sports

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analogy, this is just more of a sort

of cross perspective of sports coaches.

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Often the people they're

coaching may well go on to be

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much more successful than them.

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Maybe not, but often they will.

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That's surely what the coaches want.

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is for their coachees to be

more successful than them.

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And if someone, is at the top of

the game in tennis, as an example,

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and they're still going to have

a coach, they still need somebody

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who can watch them in their game.

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But is that person

necessarily better than them?

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Or is that person just a good coach,

good at actually observing things,

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helping them work on things noticing

their form, and giving them the

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encouragement and feedback, and having

that good relationship with them?

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It's not about being better.

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Then the person you're coaching

that's not even really relevant.

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It's can you coach them?

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Can you help with whatever they're

coming to you to help with and that's

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the real thing is that you don't need

to be So far ahead of your of the

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clients that you're working with If

you are mentoring people and telling

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them what to do, then yeah, sure,

maybe there's some credibility things

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that you might need to get in check.

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Now, I can remember a friend of mine

wanting to do relationship coaching,

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and she didn't feel that she could do

that in integrity because she hadn't had

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much success in her own relationships.

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I didn't personally think that was

a bar to being a relationship coach.

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Because she may, she

certainly has to do that.

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experience and she knows plenty

about what doesn't work, but

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it's not really relevant.

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It's can you understand what's

going on in people's relationships?

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What's going on for them emotionally?

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And can you help coach them on that?

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That's more the issue there.

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So yeah, when we actually get into and

get out of our own sort of ego feeling

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threatened or those kinds of things,

we probably recognize we can still

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work with clients who might seem On

paper at least to be way ahead of us.

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Or they might have more notoriety,

they might be, might have taken way

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more action than us in a certain area.

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And it's you know what would you do if

Mel Robbins came to you for coaching

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Angie: Oh, I'd be like, what's up, girl?

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Well, listen, but it's funny that

you say that because I was saving it.

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I, cause I had an, I

had a situation where.

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I was in a training room, I'm gonna

just say ballroom size, with a very well

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known, high level person, and it was

for one of my certifications, and so

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essentially we had to do some breakouts.

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And do some coaching on the framework

and interestingly, somehow I got paired

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up with this person's right hand person

and they told you like, Oh, by the way,

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you're going to be with this person, this

person, go take a 10 minute potty break

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and come back and be ready to coach.

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And I remember going you would have

thought that if I didn't do this

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well, like they were going to come

and take my life, my family, my

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house, my kids, like I was so nervous.

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I went to the restroom and I remember

being like sweating my palms.

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My heart was racing

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And

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John: Gail?

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Was it Gail?

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Were you getting close to Oprah?

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Angie: it was not, but you know

what, it might as well have been.

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It was really that big a name.

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But then I turned it around and it

was like you need to just do it.

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So you can't just go do it.

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And when I sat down with the

person, I was like, hi, you know,

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all like, duh, like good so wide.

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And I said, okay, get your nerves out.

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And I looked this person

right in the face and

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said.

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This has to be the most

intimidating moment of my life,

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but I'm gonna give it a shot.

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And they were like, okay.

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And listen, but let me

tell you what happened.

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I did it.

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I rocked it.

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Would I say it was perfect?

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I feel like because the bar felt

so high that it actually elevated

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and it extracted from me what

I really was capable of doing.

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And later in this 500 person ballroom,

this person got up and said, and we

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didn't know this was gonna happen.

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I did it.

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There was like a, an analysis and they

had to rate us in front of everybody

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and they rated me a 9 out of 10.

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And I was like, hey, like there I was all

of a sudden If you all could see me right

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now, I'm like, giving the big smile, like

I'm doing my red carpet walk right now.

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That's how it felt.

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And that was a moment for me, right?

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That was a moment where once everything

wore off and I had a minute to

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process what had just happened, I

was like, of course I can do this.

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I'm a coach.

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This person is still just a person, right?

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They put the pant legs on

like all the cliches, right?

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And that was a great, great experience.

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stressful, but great teaching moment

for me that, you have to expect as

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a coach that you are always growing.

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You always have someplace to go next we're

not going to get it perfect every time.

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So we have to let go of that expectation,

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John: I don't think, I don't think

it's a bad thing if even thinking

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about this has our listener questioning

their own coaching skills and ability

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because we think we should all do that.

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We should all be thinking about are you?

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continually growing?

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Are you staying ahead?

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Are you learning enough to be able to

bring new insights and aspects into your

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coaching and your school of thought that

are going to be helpful, not just to

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you, but to the people you work with?

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Or are you just following a coaching

formula that you would learn to coaching

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school or some no home study course

that you're working with people on?

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Because that may not be enough in the

long run is, if, That's where you're at.

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You're going to struggle

if things go off script.

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But if you keep your learning growing

you're always going to be in a position

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where you'll have something to add

some, something that's value, but

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there's always in coaching, particularly

there's always this aspect, or

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hopefully there's this aspect of you

are an external what would you say?

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An external person to what's going on.

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So people often.

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cannot really see the truth of

what's going on in their own

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lives because they're in it.

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It's hard to see it all when you're in it.

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So being a coach is about being that

external viewer and aiming to look

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without judgment, without limitation

on things like What are they not

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seeing, or how can you reflect back

to them, what they're actually saying

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and not really seeing for themselves

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in a way that's going to help them

to grow and develop from that.

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Not to have all the answers for them,

not to be ahead of them and say, all

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right, I need to pull you up here.

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It's I don't need to

pull you up for anything.

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I just need to have enough detachment

from what's going on for you to be able

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to help you see the game more clearly.

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So you can plan your steps forward and

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get over obstacles that are in

your way, but I don't need to be

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I don't need to be ahead of you in

all of that to help you with that.

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Angie: well, listen, if we really took

on that mindset of, I need to be ahead.

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First of all, how do we even know that?

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Number one.

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Realistically cause I would say to you

this, that some of the highest level

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of people, and I mean highest level

in terms of like careers and that

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type of space, are some of the most

challenged people that I have, they're

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across the board, I'm not, I'm thinking

about it as I'm saying it out loud,

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they have, shockingly, guess what?

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They bleed red.

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They have the same challenges and more

which was, another enlightening moment.

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I think as I go through,

I'm no longer surprised.

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I think early on I was surprised

Oh, like I learned that.

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And here's the other side of

it, if they're coming to you

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for coaching, there's humility,

I think, in wanting to be better.

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And your job is to help

them do that, right?

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It's what, exactly what you

were saying, but their hand is

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literally on the steering wheel.

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You're sitting there as you're shotgun,

you're sitting next to them and you

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do see things maybe more clearly

because you're allowed, you're able to.

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Look around and take

your eyes off the road.

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They're so focused on keeping it that way.

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So I think knowing that first of

all, somebody is coming to you for

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help or expansion or elevate, like

whatever they want and need, that

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should in itself tell you something.

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So it's really about just

get out of your head.

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John: yeah,

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We have to be able to

give honest feedback.

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We talked about this in our, can you

be friends with your clients episode?

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It was like.

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We have to be able to tell them

what they really need to hear.

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What's going to help them grow, not to

try and tell them what they want to hear.

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And if you get a bit starstruck by

someone you're working with, or you're

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thinking, Oh, there's so much, there's

so much better than I am, or something

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ahead you're going to be very wary about

what feedback they might offer you.

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If you tell them something a bit

right now, maybe we will come to an

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episode at some point on how to give

more direct feedback and how to give

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that honest feedback to your coaching

clients in a way that Is still gonna

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help a relationship to grow, but also

to give them what they really need.

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I think it's absolutely critical

that you can do that and you have

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to get your ego out the way, and

have their best interest at heart.

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Angie: absolutely.

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And if, and here's the thing, I think

the idea is to treat them like I, I

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treat all of my clients exactly the same.

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That's my rule of thumb.

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I come into it.

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I lead the sessions the same

way, in terms of what I do.

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I dig the same way.

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So really, what is the difference, right?

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Really, what is the difference?

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It really shouldn't matter.

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But you and I both know that, if coaches

are newer, they're probably going to

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have maybe a couple of moments where

they might be like, Oh my goodness,

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like this is a little intimidating.

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And I don't know, if Tony came

knocking on my door and said, Hey

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Angie, I want you to coach me.

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Right?

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I would buy, I would probably be a

little like starstruck for a minute

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and be like, ooh, but again, I would

get past that and say, okay just as a

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little side note to what we were talking

about, when that person gave me that 9

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out of 10, they were asked by the owner

of the company, the facilitator, So why?

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What why such a high number?

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It was like the highest number of the day.

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I'll take that.

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Thank you very much.

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And he, the answer was because

she was able to use this

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framework, but wasn't so rigid.

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She actually coached it was just a guide.

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She just went into coaching.

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She wasn't asking me, what about this?

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And questions that didn't lead anywhere.

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So again, I think that's just part

of dialing back into your craft as a

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coach and working the muscle, right?

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That was like a deadweight

500 pound for me.

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That

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John: That's great.

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Now, I want to get into this and

perhaps we can make this our next

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conversation about more specifically,

I know we want to talk about the

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direct conversations and maybe even

provocative coaching and things like that.

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How we just need to sometimes lean into.

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trusting ourselves and going for it

because that's where it's going to happen

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Rather than second guessing ourselves.

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We're going to have to wrap

things up there, Angie, but I've

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really enjoyed this conversation.

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Hey, look, you can contact us

with your questions or with any

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topics you'd like us to consider

or any feedback you have for us.

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you can go to speakpipe.

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com forward slash the coaching clinic

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podcast.

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The link is going to

be in the notes for us.

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Leave us a voicemail, ask questions,

tell us what you'd like us to cover

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on the show and give us any feedback

on what we've been covering so far.

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: 00:16:29

We'd love to hear from you,

but we'll be back very soon.

316

: 00:16:31

And so thanks to you for listening

in share us with your coaching

317

: 00:16:34

friends and we'll see you very soon.

318

: 00:16:36

Angie: Take care.