Risk Management in Coaching: The Role of Insurance

John: 00:00:00

Angie,

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Angie: John,

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John: are you covered,

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Angie: well, I'm wearing

clothes if that's what you mean.

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John: I mean professionally,

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Angie: I can put on my own clothes, John.

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I'm a big girl.

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John: insurance Angie?

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I'm asking if you're

insured professionally.

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Angie: Oh, yes.

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Yes, I am.

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Are you?

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John: I'm not, no.

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Angie: All right.

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Well, let's find out

why and start the show.

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John: We've talked about this a few

times, Angie, as to the pros and cons of

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insurance, and we know it's not a super

sexy topic or anything like that, but it

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might be one that is on people's minds.

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Should I have insurance as a coach

working professionally out in the world,

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or is it something I don't really need?

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I've been on both sides of the fence

on this, but I know you do have

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insurance, and I'd like to know.

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Find out why.

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what do you feel is the benefit for you?

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Angie: I didn't have

insurance for a long time.

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I wasn't even somebody that

thought I needed it, to be honest.

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And the idea of having insurance as a

coach, I Was very foreign to me and I

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was at a professional event and Of course

there was you know, some insurance person

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there and he was like hey You know for all

of you people that have a business and I

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don't just mean like a business But you

have a business structure a corporation

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you really should have insurance I

didn't do anything in that moment, but it

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piqued my interest Because again, it was

something that I hadn't even considered

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before You yeah, but you don't have it.

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John: I don't have it, but I have

had it in the past, and the reason

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I had it originally was because when

I was getting started as a coach, a

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lot of my practice was based around

NLP, Neuro Linguistic Programming, and

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therapeutic techniques within that.

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I felt it was important to be

doing that kind of work, to

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have some professional cover.

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Because it's the kind of work that if you

can't help people get the results, some

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people are more okay about it than others.

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Some people are definitely not okay if

they don't get results they want, or if

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things really don't go the way they want,

or if they somehow feel hurt or damaged

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by their experience and you never know.

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Now, I've never had cause to use it.

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I would say that I did have the insurance

for a bunch of years back in the UK

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and never had cause to use it, but it

did offer some peace of mind as I moved

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away from that style of coaching anyway.

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It seemed less and less relevant

to me to feel the need to protect

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myself from that kind of comeback

or any sort of professional

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blowback in that way from clients.

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And yet we probably have

somewhat similar coaching now

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and you do feel a need to that.

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So I'm curious why, what makes you

want to keep that going and what do

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you feel that that coverage gives you?

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Angie: I think it's like

any insurance, right?

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I think it's not because it's required,

like to drive a car, you have to

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have insurance or if you own a home

you're supposed to have insurance.

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So it's not really like that.

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It's not like, oh, I might lose it.

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It could happen.

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What if?

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It could be an accident or something.

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But I think to your point, when this

person piqued my interest, I started

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to do a little bit of digging.

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And it seemed to me that

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there were people who had it because

of situations that had already

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happened to them, where, exactly to

your point, somebody did not get the

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result that they wanted, and they

wanted to point the finger at somebody.

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And I can't speak to whether that was

justified, or it wasn't justified,

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because You and I both know that,

there's, and there's medical doctors

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that graduated at the top of their class

and there's medical, that they graduated

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at the top, the bottom of the class and

you're not going to know which is who.

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So it's the same in any arena,

any professional arena where

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There are not so great coaches out there.

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It's just the nature of the beast.

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When I started to think about the

thing that I couldn't control,

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like you could think you have this

amazing relationship or rapport with

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a client and it really doesn't take

much sometimes for that to shift.

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And all of a sudden it's,

everybody wants to come after you.

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And.

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I would say that that

was the big shift for me.

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I, when I thought about potentially

what could happen because I did find

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people who were sued by clients I was

like, okay I'm going to have that.

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And it's a little bit, even the insurance

itself, I looked at our the policy

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and basically, the way my insurance,

my personal insurance is set up, and

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this would differ for everybody, they

could do their own homework and figure

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out their own thing, but it's kind of

like, no, we can't come and take your

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house and you're this and you're that

so I'm covered and that's really the

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motivation is that, so much of what

we do is subjective, so, So, how do we

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decide and who knows when you're going

to find that person, but something you

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said really stuck out for me that, once

I stopped doing that type of coaching,

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then I felt like maybe I didn't need it.

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And that's so interesting to me

because I'm like, Hmm, what's

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the differentiation for you?

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John: I think that was much more

interventional coaching, where

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someone's going to you and saying,

I've got this problem, and you're

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saying, okay, well I'm gonna help you.

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With that and I have the

solution, essentially.

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So if someone was coming to me, I

don't know, one example would be

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to quit smoking, which I know I

did some smoking cessations with

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people, some successful, some not.

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But it could be something like that,

it could be maybe they want to lose

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weight, maybe that doesn't happen.

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They want to have some kind

of psychological intervention

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they want to change something.

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Change how they're showing

up in the lives of that.

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I think coaching is going to do some level

of that, but the NLP stuff is much more,

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at least purports to be more therapeutic

and a bit more, okay I'm actually

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going to do this technique with you.

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So I'm intervening as a coach and as she's

saying, this is what you're going to do.

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Whereas coaching in

general to me is like, I'm.

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only ever really asking questions.

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If there is specific guidance, I'm

going to offer my experience if I feel

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it's relevant, but I'm still never

going to tell someone what to do.

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If I think someone might be heading

down a path of problems or disaster,

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I'm going to say, I think, be careful

here and consider your options.

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I would always say that anyway,

consider all of your options here.

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And look at what's going to

be the best path forward.

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It's really never about me telling

somebody what to do, other than, if

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there's something I want them to download

and say, Oh, take a look at this,

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this is going to be helpful to you.

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Or no, if we're doing a working through

our program, as we do with clients, let's

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move on to the next part of the program.

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That's as close as we probably

get to telling people what to

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do to get on this call with us.

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Let's see.

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It's going to be helpful.

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But in terms of directing your life,

it's like, well, when we can offer

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opinions and we can offer advice,

but you have to make the decision.

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And I think we will have to be clear

about it's going to be your decision.

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So In my head, that's where it goes,

is that I don't have liability

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for the decisions my clients make.

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But it's interesting to me that you make

that point of, well, sometimes these

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lawsuits and stuff can be frivolous

and, or they can have no real grounding.

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And it's a really good point because

you may have done nothing wrong.

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And you may still find yourself

having to pay legal costs to defend

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yourself in a case where it's

going to ultimately get found out,

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probably that you did nothing wrong.

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You may still have to pay some costs.

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So you may end up getting

your costs covered.

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If the case gets thrown out or you

get found to be probably more likely

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civil cases you get found in favor,

the jury or the judge finds in favor

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of you in those situations, you may

still have a lot of costs that you

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don't really want to be coming out of

your personal finances, that insurance

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could help you there and it can happen,

I think it's probably somewhat rare.

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I haven't encountered it very much and I

imagine it is more of a thing of I've done

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coaching in the financial area and some

of my fellow coaches in that area have.

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sometimes worked with clients

and directed them towards

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particular kinds of investments.

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Which is something I would never

do because I wasn't ever prepared

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to have the liability for that.

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And even getting them to sign

a waiver or disclaimer to say,

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if any, if this doesn't work

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Angie: You just read my mind.

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John: Yeah, I even wonder how is

that going to protect you completely?

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If you're going to go down that path,

you're moving into the territory of

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being a financial advisor, in which

case you probably would want to have

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professional insurance or a wealth

advisor or an investment advisor.

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Those are things where you probably

are giving more of your expert opinion.

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Hey, you should try this investment.

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And you would be leaving yourself

open for potential litigation

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if those things don't work out.

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Angie: I think there's always

the potential for litigation.

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I think I just anything you do,

literally you could drive to McDonald's,

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burn yourself with coffee and there's

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litigation

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and it can happen anywhere.

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When I was setting up my business like

super professionally and I did decide

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to incorporate the insurance, there

were some things even in my contract

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that I had an attorney talked to an

attorney and said, Hey, Who am I?

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I don't want to look this up

on, Google Docs or whatever to

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figure out what I should say.

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What I want to make sure that, even

and even though you have that, that's

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where that disclaimer comes in.

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So when somebody signs a contract to

work with me, there are pieces of that

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that are very specific, that if I ever

feel that you might harm yourself or

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somebody else or whatever, that I'm going

to alert authorities or I even have an

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emergency contact on there because, not

doing something is even a liability.

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So, I don't, you know, again, I don't

want to go too far down like the legal

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side of it because maybe there are some

attorneys out there that are, turned

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coach that are listening and they

could shed some light at some point.

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I think it depends on where you

are, I think it depends on what

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you do, and to your point, what you

were doing with NLP was definitely

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more of a therapeutic approach.

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But the interesting thing though, is

as you were saying that, I'm like, Some

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of our clients definitely come into

sessions that are, they're very emotional

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and that doesn't mean that they need

therapy, but they look at coaching as like

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maybe even a substitution for therapy.

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So I think that we, and this is

part of that obligation is we need

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to have that conversation and say

to somebody and set them straight.

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I may not be the right person for you.

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This is not therapy.

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And I've had people ask me,

well, what's the difference?

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Well, there's many differences which

maybe we'll talk about at a later time.

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But in the meantime, it's more

about keeping everybody protected.

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So when I look at that, I think to

myself, well, this just isn't just

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my insurance policy to provide

some kind of shelter for me

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I don't want some partner or spouse

going, So and so did something really bad

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after they had their session with you.

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Well, it's not my job to

decipher What is gonna tick them

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off or you know what I mean?

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Like sometimes when you do deep

heavy work with people as a coach

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It can definitely trigger people.

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So again to me The thing that is you

just never know So I just feel like

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let me have that You I would say to

you, you said something earlier that

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makes sense, like we cannot protect

ourselves from all the things.

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There's loopholes in every

single document written, right?

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So even though I have a contract,

even though there's specific

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verbiage, all of those things, If

something happens, something happens.

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I feel better with it, than

without it, because who am I?

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How am I?

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I don't know what, if somebody were

to rule against me or something and

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say, well, because you're this, you

should have known better, or something.

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You know, whatever that even turns into.

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We certainly couldn't even

begin to think of all the

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possibilities of what could happen

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John: exactly and I'm I don't doubt that

there is a great case to be made for The

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peace of mind that having professional

insurance cover can give you even if

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it doesn't protect you necessarily from

anything Everything is going to be a lot

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more potential than you might otherwise

have, and you may never need it, but

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that's true of pretty much any insurance.

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I we have insurance, but we hope

we never need it, and it, but it's

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there when we do, and sometimes

we have to have insurance.

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I do think it is worth checking out

what other people I know some of

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my position may be from ignorance

and just, you don't, sometimes you

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don't know what you don't know.

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So I feel reasonably safe as a

coach that probably not going

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to encounter those things.

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So that may be true,

but you just never know.

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And

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yeah,

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I think it is something.

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people may want to consider is

like, what is your peace of mind?

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What is your level of risk conversion here

as to whether you want to have it or not.

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And also the cost might be a

consideration for many coaches as well.

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How much is it going to

cost you to have that?

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Perhaps where if you have stuff out

there that is maybe a little more along

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the lines of courses, programs that

are offering specific results, you at

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the very least need to have some sort

of guarantee and some sort of process

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for handling potential complaints.

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Do you need insurance?

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I'm curious as I'd be curious to know

how many people in that area even

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have insurance that would protect them

from stuff that might come back there.

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Because I think it's probably something

most people don't feel they need.

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Most of the situations that are

probably going to ever rise up from

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those things are going to relate to

probably the best thing to do is to

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give a refund and they're part ways

rather than someone's actually going

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to try and sue you professionally.

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But it may depend on the particular

advice or guidance that's given.

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Angie: I think too, and I just

want to touch on this, but I feel

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like I'm a little bringing this

up a little bit late in the game.

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We're talking about having insurance

and think about a car accident, right?

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Even if you have done nothing wrong, the

fact that somebody rear ended you and

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the fact that you were just sitting at

that red light or that stop sign, you

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have liability automatically just because

you were there, which is so unfair.

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It's just the way the rules go.

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With that kind of thought in mind, I

think about it and I say to myself, well,

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if I didn't have it am I opening myself

up to liability and I probably will

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never use it and all of those things.

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But sometimes people, when they

know that there's insurance,

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can become opportunistic.

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There are just those situations.

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I've heard of them.

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I knock on wood, hear that?

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I've never experienced them.

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But the two occasions that I heard of

prior work coaches that I knew very well.

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And when the story came out this

is why they're coming after me.

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I was like in shock because it was so

in my perception, it was very minute.

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It wasn't that big a deal.

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But I would say that if you're

going to buy the insurance,

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make sure you understand what

the policy actually covers.

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Like any insurance and if you need to have

certain type of contracts and by the way

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yes, you should have a contract, by the

way, folks, we want to make sure of that.

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But make sure that it's as

thorough as it needs to be for the

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level of work that you're doing.

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That's really what it comes down to.

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Protect yourself a bit.

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, John: there is another kind of insurance

that we haven't talked about which

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might be worth considering for coaches,

especially those who are self-employed

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coaches, which is insurance on.

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Your health for not and I don't just

mean for hospitalization and things

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but insurance on your income because

if you get sick most of the time your

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work is going to be Dependent on you

being there and showing up and you may

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have stuff that is like online courses

programs and stuff that you don't actually

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have to be there in person for great.

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If you've got all that, the stuff

you can keep running, even if you get

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sick, but for most coaches, probably

the reality is if you get sick, you're

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going to lose income rescheduling.

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People doesn't always look at you

possibly going to lose income,

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especially if you end up being

sick for a long period of time.

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I do think it probably is worth

considering those kind of insurances

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that protect your income as a self

employed person if you do end up sick

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and unable to work for whatever reason.

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So it's worth taking a look at that

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Angie: I think you've probably

caught the attention of so many

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people because I have heard of it.

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I've never really looked into it and

i'm seeing and scratching my head

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going Why didn't you think about that?

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Because the chances of that happening

might be better than maybe somebody

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else initiating something against me So

really super curious now i'm like I'm

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gonna have to make a phone call today

and find out like hey, what is this?

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Because i've never inquired I have to

be honest A little bit ignorant on it.

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I know nothing about it, but

definitely piqued my interest for sure.

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John: So the insurance question I

guess always comes down to how much

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peace of mind would you like to have

to know that even if you might never

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need it and that you have a level of

coverage that's probably going to keep

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you well protected and well covered

if it's within affordability for you.

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And it's going to give you some peace

of mind, then great, it's probably

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going to be well worth looking at.

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I do know for many people, one

of the reasons why I didn't have

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it for a long time was just cost.

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Initially the coaching cover that I had

was actually fairly low cost, but if

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I spoke to any of the major insurance

companies about it in the UK this was,

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the cost from them was a lot higher.

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So we're talking the difference between

like less than 100 and over a 300 or even

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over a 500 in some cases per year for

that level, for the same level of cover.

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Yeah, so something that wasn't really on

the cards for me and many coaches when

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they're just getting started are possibly

not going to find that kind of money.

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I wouldn't want it to be something

that necessarily stops you

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from getting started, but I'm

certainly not saying don't get it.

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Just saying.

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Look at your options.

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If you can manage it, it's going

to be some peace of mind for you.

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I do wanna come back to this just quickly

because you mentioned that you actually

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know some people who have been gone after.

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And so are you able to share

what those things were that they,

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even if they were frivolous, what,

what did they go after them for

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Angie: so one of them was Because their

marriage ended and it was actually the

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spouse That's kind of why I alluded

like weak partner spouse, whatever and

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the other one was they quit a Super

high level Job, super high level,

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meaning, income in the United States,

it was like over 400, 000 a year,

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which is a nice income I'd have to say.

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And like setting these pie in the

sky, expectations, if you will.

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And interestingly one of them

did receive compensation,

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John: It is interesting.

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Angie: but it wasn't, it was more of

so like I said, there's always fault.

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No matter what, you could be

sitting at the light and somebody

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hits you and you're at fault.

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Just because of the engagement,

there was automatic fault.

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And again, I wouldn't, I'd be

lying if I could tell you if I

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told you that I knew all the ins

and outs, but I knew the overview.

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The first one was like, you know what?

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You got divorced because your marriage

stopped, I don't know what to tell you.

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The second one, because there was

so much money at stake and that

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person was saying I had this great

job and no, I didn't love it.

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I hated it, but it was what kept

the lights on and the bellies full.

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I was the primary income and all

the things and there was a judgment.

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So I, that was baffling to me Oh, so

you did something, you helped somebody

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get to a place where they were happier

or whatever, whatever that was.

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And somebody actually came

back and bit you for that.

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So, that to me was like, and

that was really my opinion when

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I heard the story at the time.

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I was like, Oh my goodness,

like somebody would do that?

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Come after you for helping to better

their lives and energy and all

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the things that we do as coaches.

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And that's when I was like, I need

to have this because it was okay.

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It was substantial enough that

the cost of the insurance for

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years would not have cost that.

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: 00:21:35

John: Yeah,

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Angie: Was it millions?

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It wasn't hundreds of thousands.

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It was millions.

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It was probably around 25, 000,

but Paolo, do you want to go

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stroke a check for 25, 000?

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I don't.

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Mm mm.

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: 00:21:51

John: It is a good thing to just

recognize that the unexpected can

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be out there and the law isn't.

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always as fair or just as we might hope

it is certainly in its application.

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And often people with money or from money

do find it easier to go for litigation.

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And some people are just

more litigious in general.

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And we have to be aware that you get what

you get, that said, I have never had that

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issue, so far, hopefully never will, and

I don't know any other coaches who have

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it would be, it's interesting, it's like,

yeah, do you want it, do you not, do you

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need it, do you not, make up your own

mind, get your information, have a think

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: 00:22:29

about it, I guess if you're listening, if

you're listening to this episode, you're

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at least thinking about it anyway so go

and find out what your options are and

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see how you want to proceed from there.

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And,

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Angie: moment.

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: 00:22:38

Just, you know what?

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: 00:22:39

Do yourself a favor.

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: 00:22:40

Even if you think, I don't want

that, just do what you just said.

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: 00:22:44

Just go check it out.

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: 00:22:45

See what the options are and see

what the coverage could look like.

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: 00:22:49

And.

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: 00:22:50

Honestly, the insurance, the person that I

spoke with when I got the insurance, they

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: 00:22:55

were more able to tell me like, Oh this

is really what this is going to cover.

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: 00:23:00

And that enlightened me a little bit too.

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: 00:23:03

Before you make a final decision, just do

a little bit of research and then make,

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at least make that educated decision.

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: 00:23:09

So

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that's all I have to say about it.

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: 00:23:12

Hope it

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: 00:23:12

John: That's our recommendation.

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: 00:23:14

Make an educated, make your best educated

decision as to whether or not to have him.

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: 00:23:18

Great.

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: 00:23:19

I think we've done as

much as we can do here.

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: 00:23:21

And if anyone does want to contribute more

he has better understanding and insight

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: 00:23:25

of the insurance world and how this

relates to coaches or self employed people

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: 00:23:30

that might be able to offer some extra

insight, by all means, get in contact

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: 00:23:33

with us and we've maybe even bring them

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: 00:23:34

on the show.

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: 00:23:35

Angie: Yeah.

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: 00:23:36

Absolutely.

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: 00:23:37

John: For now, that's it from us.

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: 00:23:38

We'll be back next week with more

good stuff from the coaching clinic.

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See you then

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: 00:23:42

Angie: Bye bye!