Mastering Coaching Frameworks: Flexibility and Structure

Angie: 00:00:00

John,

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John: Angie.

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Angie: how's your week been so far?

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John: pretty good actually.

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Angie: Tell me.

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John: I had a really great

coaching session with a client

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and felt like we really connected.

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Well

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Angie: connected how?

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John: Well, he's a very prominent business

leader and he'd just come back from

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vacation and told me all sorts of details

about his experiences whilst he was away.

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Angie: Okay, so what did

you end up coaching him on?

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John: Oh well, we didn't really get to

the coaching in this session but we do now

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have some really amazing rapport and we'll

get to the coaching next time I guess.

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Angie: Don't you use a framework

with your coaching clients?

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John: What do you mean like those

things in a kid's playgrounds?

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Angie: Oh John.

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No, that's a climbing frame.

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A framework is a preset sequence of themes

And topics for your client sessions.

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Do you want to know more?

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John: Oh, you know I do.

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Angie: Okay, then let's start the show.

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That's hilarious.

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Playing in the playground.

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Although, I mean, I guess if you

think about it, it's a really great

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visual because sometimes that's

how coaching sessions can go.

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If you're not following something.

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John: my first memory of

getting to the top was

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Angie: Oh my gosh.

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Was climbing.

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Okay.

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So let me ask you seriously though,

Do you follow any type of specific

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framework when you're coaching

with clients or do you wing it?

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John: I've done both and I still do both.

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It depends on the coaching that I'm doing.

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So, I do some coaching for another

organization as a client and

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that's pretty much winging it.

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There's no formal structure, although

in the group coaching I do for them,

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there is, and in one to one stuff I

do personally, I follow I do follow

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a format and formula of things that I

want to make sure people get through.

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Cause it's a more specific

kind of coaching consulting

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arrangement where that's necessary.

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So yeah, a mixture is the answer.

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Angie: So let me ask you something since

you do both and there's a specific reason

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I am asking you this but Do you notice

any difference in the outcomes when you're

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Doing it with a framework and without

do you see any difference between those?

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John: Not really.

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Not anymore.

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I think if it were, if I were

in my earlier days as a coach, I

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would probably find it a bit more

challenging to do the freeform stuff.

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I think it took a while to develop

that to be effective with it.

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So that it wasn't actually just

the long conversations where we

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didn't really get to the point.

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So sometimes knowing exactly what you're

going to be talking about or what the

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main topical theme is for a session for

you and so it can be really helpful.

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But if it isn't, I know now

how to get into a topical

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theme Really quickly with them.

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We don't waste a lot of time.

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Angie: Yeah, no, I think what you said

there is key and being that, you know how

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to make sure that it doesn't kind of just

fall off and go, Okay, now where are we?

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We're so far in the weeds.

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We neither one of us can find our

way out because, something you and

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I have talked about many times is

that you are the pace car, right?

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You are the leader of those sessions.

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And even though a client might

come in and say, I know we're

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going to talk about this today.

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But I really need to talk about this, and

I'm good with that because I feel like

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I want to meet people where they are.

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And, sometimes it's like, I had a

really bad interaction with my boss or

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it's been, I have this great interview

opportunity coming up and I'm petrified.

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Well, what I'm going to talk about

is not teaching them how to have

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it, have a great interview, right?

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I'm going to help them

get past like the fear.

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So, it's amazing to be able to do that.

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And like, here's the reason why I

specifically asked you is because.

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Something I noticed is when you

start working with a client,

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nothing's been uncovered.

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So there's like a million different

directions you can go into.

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And it seems like I can just literally put

my hand into the bucket, pull something

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out, and I'm going to come up with a gem.

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That's not, that's great.

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But I do believe I, for myself personally,

I like having a specific topic.

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Or hence the framework, in

the very beginning, so that

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I'm laying good foundation.

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I'm kind of starting at the beginning

of the story and instead of like,

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let me go midway and then say,

okay, Len, let's take you back.

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The other thing that pops

up for me is time longevity.

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So here I am saying it's really great

in the beginning because even though

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the world is your oyster, stay focused.

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But later, the longer I have found, the

longer I work with a client, the easier

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it is to go off into the weeds and

just have a conversation rather than.

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What was your big challenge this week?

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I hate that question and I don't ask it.

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You know what I mean?

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Like you're laughing, but so, so

I feel like there could be really

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great advantages to having a specific

framework under those circumstances.

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John: I like framework.

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To the extent of you, you will always have

somewhere to go if you have a framework.

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Angie: And

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John: So if you get to a

point in your session, I don't

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really know where to go now.

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Or, and I'm sure you will have

heard this in a session, I don't

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really know what I want to talk

about or what I want to work on.

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Angie: David,

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John: where do you, if you get the

answer and you don't already know how

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to move them past that, where do you go?

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So if you have a framework, you move them

into the framework really easy, makes

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your life and their life a lot easier.

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Okay.

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Well, on the framework

is where we'd go next.

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Great.

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Let's talk about that in conversation.

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I'm going to be like, all right.

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So.

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All parts of your life are

running top level 10 and you

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don't need to work on anything.

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Is that right?

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Well, no.

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Okay, so

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Angie: yeah.

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No,

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I

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love

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John: good place for us to look at.

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Angie: Yeah.

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No, I love that.

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I love that you're like, I love that.

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'cause I've actually said that.

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Like, Oh, so this is great.

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So we need to end the session.

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We're done.

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You don't need coaching and

kind of poking fun, right?

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I'm being a little more sarcastic

than you, but let me ask you.

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I forgot what I was going to ask you.

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Dang it.

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Oh.

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So what do you feel like the potential,

and I'm going to use this word lightly,

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but what are the potential dangers or

downfalls to not using a framework?

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John: I think one of them is if you

really don't know how to keep the

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conversation on track or how to keep the

coaching on track and you haven't pre

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framed a lot of stuff with them, that

you could end up falling into rabbit

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holes and irrelevant conversations.

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And we you mentioned it many times in

our episodes previously about having

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that expensive cup of coffee with

someone, if there's no real value to

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that conversation, if it's just like a

bit of chit chat or getting some stuff

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off your chest or whatever, I'm not

saying there's no value to that, but

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it's not actually what you're there for.

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It's not a coaching session.

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And in that situation, it's

just an expensive cup of coffee.

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You might as well have just gone

out to the coffee shop and chat to

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a random stranger and make a new

friend, but it has to have some value.

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And the help you want to help

people get in the direction of that,

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well, what are you encouraging for?

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What is it you want to be, do

have or create in your life?

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And if you're not good at automatically

keeping things reined in and on track.

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You will find yourself getting derailed,

especially by people who are very good

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at derailing the conversation or the

direction that you might be going in.

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I will relate it in some sense to

what I do sometimes on my other

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podcast when I'm interviewing guests.

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It's so easy to find yourself going down

rabbit holes in a conversation with a

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guest that you have to be able to pull

things back in and keep the conversation

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on track because you have an audience.

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That's going to be listening to

this and you're either going to end

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up having to edit out a huge chunk

of nonsense or irrelevant Crap to

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where you could have saved some of

the time and kept things on track.

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And yeah, it seems like a very

cultivated and Manicured conversation

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to some degree but it's much more

impactful as much more Directed

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Angie: I agree.

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I think having, I, I do believe that

overall having something, because also

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too, what does that framework consist of?

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Right?

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You have to be, if you're

going to create and or follow a

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framework, it needs to make sense.

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You don't want it to just be random.

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It needs to be intentional.

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There needs to be a

specific reason for it.

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And I do like to, start when I'm coaching

somebody like, let's get some clarity.

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All right.

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We had a discovery call.

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You're now a client you've signed

up and we've talked about, I know

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you want to do the, these are some

of your focus points this and this.

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Right.

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And I usually, when I'm in that

discovery call, I really limit it to

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three because we're not here to save

the entire lifespan of your existence.

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That's not.

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Where we're starting anyway, and

that stuff will come later But what

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are the big you know, what are the

top three big nuggets right now for

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you this way when i'm formulating

or following I'm being intentional

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about what that framework looks like

so that I actually this is funny.

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I actually have a friend who's a

coach and Interestingly, and I don't

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think this is bad per se, but the

dig is always like, let me find that

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pain point every single session.

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And I think it can be very effective,

but I also feel like, let's give people

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a chance to bask in some of their

accomplishments, like, like any other

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goal that you set for yourself, right?

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I don't want to lose a hundred pounds.

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That's great.

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If we focus on that hundred pounds and

then the pain of getting there, we're

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never going to lose that hundred pounds.

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That's my opinion of that.

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So I think that it can be really

beneficial, but I also think we have to

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be careful because we also want to allow

some rays of sunshine into this process.

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And I've watched again, because

I've seen it, I've experienced it.

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I've watched people.

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I also have had clients.

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That feel like coaching

has to be negative, right?

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Like I'm here for help.

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I'm here to change and I just know

it's going to be uncomfortable.

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And they feel like maybe that's

what the entire that, the

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sessions need to look like.

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And I'm like, this is going to be

fun, exciting, and sometimes hard,

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John: I do think, we've talked about that.

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Triage discovery calls before, and that's

a place where you do need to be able to

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help to dive into somebody's pain points.

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Probably not going to be super deep on

that because it, because of the nature

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of that call and the, you don't have the

complete relationship yet, but you do need

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to to be able to establish where, whether

the relationship is going to work or not.

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Does that need to happen in every call?

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I'd say not.

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And I have both worked in sales

arenas and sales that people

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are kind of wise to this now.

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Especially if they've

worked in sales as well.

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You and I, if we were on a sales call

with someone else and they were trying to

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sell us, we, because we're kind of savvy

on that, if they're trying to get into

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our pain points, we know exactly what

they're doing, like, all right, fine.

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You want to get, you want to get into

my pain points and then we're going

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to, we are deciding whether we're

going to let them do that or not.

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But you know, exactly what's going on.

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And I think people are

a lot wiser to that.

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If you're doing that all the

time in your coaching, it's a

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little bit formulaic as well.

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But.

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Sometimes not everything that's going on

is pain points that need to be resolved.

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Sometimes it is that, sometimes I

think you do need to take a look at

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the aspirational and inspirational

as well as the elements of pain

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or discomfort in life as well.

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Sometimes, and sometimes that will

happen in the same session that

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you look at both of those aspects.

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But yeah I certainly am aware some coaches

are more focused on them moving away from.

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Here's my take on this, you may or may

not agree, if all you're really focused

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on is what you want to move away from,

you're only really going to be able to

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move people as far as their comfort zone.

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Angie: I agree.

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I think that makes sense.

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Yeah.

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I mean, that's logical because

there's nothing to grab on to

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John: and so that you're just getting

them away from, far enough away from

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the pain that it's not painful anymore.

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Angie: right?

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But that doesn't mean there's, that

there's, I don't want to use the

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word productivity there because it's

very, that's such a big topic itself.

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But I mean, like, it doesn't mean that

you're bringing them into a productive

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sequence of sessions and outcomes.

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John: But this, yeah, exactly.

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And this is one of the reasons why,

let's take diets as an example.

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One of the reasons why so many diets fail

for people, is because if you're alright

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my weight's an issue, I've got to do

something about it, you start the diet.

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You move far enough away that you're like,

oh, I'm not feeling that weight's such

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an issue right now, not quite so painful,

and then you start to backslide and you

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start to fall back into those old habits

and it becomes a repetitive cycle in

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your life of, the, what do they call it?

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Perpetual dieting, but It just

never ends this sort of up and down

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because you're only ever getting to

comfort zone You're not ever really

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getting to the result that you want.

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You're just getting trying to

get away from what you don't want

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Angie: I agree.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And I think that, something,

this is interesting.

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I didn't always use framework.

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So that's why I asked you that

question in the very beginning,

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because in my mind, I was immediately

able to draw the comparison.

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I think that when I started, I was a

good coach because I was always curious

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and I was never the coach that was

like, let me tell you what to do because

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I def not, you know what, I don't

even know if I did that consciously.

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I just think that when I was

being mentored and or coached.

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I absolutely despised

being told what to do.

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I hated it and it didn't work for me.

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, so I'm sitting here scratching my head

going, yeah, that just didn't work for me.

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So I think I naturally tried to stay

away from that, which made me a better

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coach than most for the beginning, right?

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For who I was in the beginning, I

wouldn't say if I rated myself then

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now to then it's light years, right?

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There's nothing like that person.

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Because everything I do is intentional,

even if it sounds matter of fact and

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flowy and I'm still being a coach.

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but I definitely can look

and I can say to myself.

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Yes, I think following the framework

has just made me or a framework has

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made me a better coach I don't want

our listeners to misunderstand though

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Don't just because there's a topic

or a theme which is what we're really

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talking about doesn't mean that the

entire Session is scripted, right?

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There's still that element of just because

I'm talking about let's just say energy

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or something or so forth Whatever I'm

talking about I'm not following a script,

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but I do have some specific questions

to help in case it gets stuck, in case

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it gets like, they're resistant, they

are high level, kind of what you said,

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like we know when we're being sold to.

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So if I have a client

that's super resistant.

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I might have one or two, questions

that I pull out that can kind

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of get things back on track.

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But I don't want our listeners to

misunderstand that it's just a theme

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or a topic that we're talking about.

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I am anyway.

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Not that the entire session is

like, question number one, let

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John: Yeah.

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I have once in my life, I will

say it's just one time being on

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a coaching call with a coach who

it was a scripted coaching call.

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Ultimately it was

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and

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she really just not exactly, but it was,

I think I was very much gritting my teeth

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whilst whilst we were in that conversation

because the whole thing was clunky.

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And she was really just waiting

for me to finish answers so she

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could move on to the next question.

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And it was one of those situations

where I'm thinking, this is someone

314

: 00:17:01

who had a coaching business.

315

: 00:17:03

So I'm thinking, how do

you even have a business?

316

: 00:17:06

How do clients even come back to this?

317

: 00:17:08

Some of them do, some of

them seem to be okay with it.

318

: 00:17:11

But as a coach, I just thought, I

thought she was a terrible coach.

319

: 00:17:15

I just

320

: 00:17:16

Angie: Yeah, that's fair.

321

: 00:17:17

Yeah.

322

: 00:17:18

Because here's what happens when you

follow a script within a topic, right?

323

: 00:17:23

I think what happens is you lose the

authenticity of the coaching session.

324

: 00:17:28

And I think this dials

back to what you said.

325

: 00:17:31

As a coach, if you want to be a great

coach, you need to know how to navigate

326

: 00:17:35

in the moment because you don't know

what the client is going to say.

327

: 00:17:41

I've had clients that have

said things to me that have

328

: 00:17:43

literally curled my hair, right?

329

: 00:17:45

Like, and it's, and listen, and

we all live the way I am by now.

330

: 00:17:49

I'm not shocked by many things.

331

: 00:17:51

Nothing surprises me.

332

: 00:17:53

Nothing insults me.

333

: 00:17:54

I'm not offended easily.

334

: 00:17:56

And I've heard things and I'm like,

I can't believe I'm hearing this.

335

: 00:17:59

This is crazy to me, but it's

because of what I've allowed, right?

336

: 00:18:05

Because I've opened up that session.

337

: 00:18:07

So that person feels so comfortable

that there's room for them to

338

: 00:18:12

bring what they need to break

instead of me going, well, no.

339

: 00:18:16

We're going to talk about this question.

340

: 00:18:19

Right.

341

: 00:18:19

And honestly, there's very few topics

that you talk about in coaching in

342

: 00:18:25

terms of framework that you can't

apply to almost anything, right?

343

: 00:18:28

So if we're talking about, let's say

fear, there's no possibility that I

344

: 00:18:34

could, I don't know, maybe I'm being

arrogant when I say this, I'm sorry.

345

: 00:18:38

If I'm talking with somebody,

I can find the pain point.

346

: 00:18:41

Always.

347

: 00:18:42

I don't care if it's about their cooking.

348

: 00:18:44

I can find a pain point.

349

: 00:18:45

I can dial it back to a belief

and a story because I've learned

350

: 00:18:49

naturally kind of how to do that.

351

: 00:18:52

So that's like part of having the

benefit of a frame of a topic maybe.

352

: 00:18:58

And then, cause I think, differentiating

that is really important.

353

: 00:19:02

Doesn't mean I have the set criteria where

I'm like, so John, what are you afraid of?

354

: 00:19:08

Are you sure you're not afraid of that?

355

: 00:19:10

How do you know you're not afraid of that?

356

: 00:19:12

You know what I mean?

357

: 00:19:13

That's

358

: 00:19:13

John: You know what I'm afraid of.

359

: 00:19:14

Yeah, but

360

: 00:19:16

Angie: Me?

361

: 00:19:17

No, I'm joking.

362

: 00:19:18

Anyway.

363

: 00:19:19

John: I think it would be interesting

for our listener potentially to,

364

: 00:19:24

if we actually gave some examples

of the kinds of things that we have

365

: 00:19:28

had in frameworks that we've used.

366

: 00:19:31

Because we're just saying

frameworks and it's like there

367

: 00:19:33

are different kinds of frameworks.

368

: 00:19:34

What have been some of the frameworks

you've used and what would be

369

: 00:19:38

examples of like session topics

that you would have had there?

370

: 00:19:41

Angie: Think that's what I was getting at.

371

: 00:19:42

So framework versus topic.

372

: 00:19:45

So one of my certifications, and

this is kind of what I'm going to go

373

: 00:19:49

to because it's easy, I have my own

frameworks, like if I'm doing leadership

374

: 00:19:54

or if I'm doing, relationship coach,

like whatever coaching I'm doing.

375

: 00:19:58

But when I became a certified high

performance coach, there was a

376

: 00:20:02

specific framework that, that entails.

377

: 00:20:06

And I use that framework, I

would say, because I love it.

378

: 00:20:10

It's just me love it always.

379

: 00:20:13

So first session is always about

clarity and there are specific

380

: 00:20:19

questions provided that I can ask.

381

: 00:20:23

But again, at this point, I'm,

I'm kind of going into it.

382

: 00:20:26

Like, we need to kind of clear things up.

383

: 00:20:29

And the reason I do this as

the 1st session is because, I

384

: 00:20:31

need to see where this client

really needs to go first, right?

385

: 00:20:37

Out of all the things that we could be

coaching on, where they need to, and it

386

: 00:20:41

may not be what they intended, right?

387

: 00:20:44

But I'm not here to just

prove them or prove, that this

388

: 00:20:46

is right or wrong for them.

389

: 00:20:47

I just need to test it out.

390

: 00:20:49

So that's one specific topic that I

start with, but it's also one that

391

: 00:20:56

I can bring back whether I'm in

session one or session eight, right?

392

: 00:21:00

So that for me is one.

393

: 00:21:02

What do you use?

394

: 00:21:03

John: A few different things.

395

: 00:21:04

So, there is a whole process that I

can go through with people of, I guess

396

: 00:21:09

the first part is similar to clarity

of essentially what do you want?

397

: 00:21:13

And then we'll spend the whole

session on why do you want it?

398

: 00:21:18

We can set, we can spend

the session on what are the

399

: 00:21:21

obstacles or blockages to that.

400

: 00:21:23

These are things that on

group calls, I've done them.

401

: 00:21:25

I've done this whole process within a

call, but in one to one sessions, we

402

: 00:21:28

can actually go pretty deep on this

stuff and spend a lot longer on it.

403

: 00:21:32

So some of that is led by the client to

a degree, but also there's an element

404

: 00:21:37

where a framework may use was like, well,

let's take some specific life areas,

405

: 00:21:41

Angie: was just gonna

406

: 00:21:42

John: Yeah,

407

: 00:21:42

like wheel of life kind of stuff.

408

: 00:21:44

They're one of the oldest coaching

tools in the book, but it really

409

: 00:21:47

still a really helpful tool.

410

: 00:21:49

What do you actually want?

411

: 00:21:50

What do these areas of life look or

feel like for you in terms of where

412

: 00:21:55

you want them to be and where they

are right now, that gives you probably

413

: 00:21:59

one of the strongest indications of

414

: 00:22:03

what, where they're at in their life right

now, but I also find that there's a whole,

415

: 00:22:07

there's really a whole bunch of things you

could go into, but probably these are two

416

: 00:22:10

of the bigger things I maybe want to spend

sessions, but you might want to go through

417

: 00:22:14

a whole process where you're going to

spend a session on going into their values

418

: 00:22:17

and what's important to them going into.

419

: 00:22:19

Unconscious beliefs from

childhood and reprogramming.

420

: 00:22:22

And yeah, there's so many different

things you could have in a framework.

421

: 00:22:26

I haven't come across too many

other substantiated frameworks that

422

: 00:22:30

do that much different to those.

423

: 00:22:32

But when we talk about frameworks,

it's kind of having those themes for

424

: 00:22:36

a session that, and I will frame this

up with clients in advance of this

425

: 00:22:41

is probably what we're getting at.

426

: 00:22:42

This is what we'll talk about next time.

427

: 00:22:43

Either they bring up some things that

are, let's come back to that next time.

428

: 00:22:46

If that still feels appropriate.

429

: 00:22:47

Okay.

430

: 00:22:47

Or this let's get onto

this topic next time.

431

: 00:22:50

And again if other stuff comes

up that feels more of a priority,

432

: 00:22:53

we'll go into that, but this is

the plan for the next session.

433

: 00:22:56

So that's already pre

done to a lot of the time.

434

: 00:22:59

I'll even empower clients.

435

: 00:23:01

I think it's empowering

clients to actually get them

436

: 00:23:04

free free, yeah, prepare, I'm

trying to find the right word.

437

: 00:23:07

Let's get that to prepare them,

pre frame them for showing up

438

: 00:23:11

prepared for their sessions.

439

: 00:23:12

So well, you show up, you should

show up to our sessions and

440

: 00:23:17

knowing what you want to work on,

or what would be valuable to you.

441

: 00:23:20

If you come to the session, you

don't, we'll figure it out, but it's

442

: 00:23:23

going to be much more impactful.

443

: 00:23:25

And a much swifter process for

you if you come onto the call and

444

: 00:23:29

you know what you want to work on.

445

: 00:23:31

Angie: It's interesting because when

I create a framework, because this

446

: 00:23:34

is something that You know, I have

people that'll purchase a specific

447

: 00:23:38

like high performance package from me.

448

: 00:23:40

Obviously, I've been around a minute, so

I do different things in different ways.

449

: 00:23:44

However, regardless of, so sometimes I

use something that's already standard

450

: 00:23:49

that I am legally able to use.

451

: 00:23:50

And then there's times

when I go, you know what?

452

: 00:23:52

I need to kind of cherry pick with

this client and I'm going to put

453

: 00:23:56

together, I'm going to build a

framework around them specifically.

454

: 00:24:02

Okay.

455

: 00:24:03

To your point, it's not etched in stone.

456

: 00:24:06

It's just a guide.

457

: 00:24:07

It's, sometimes we're going to hit a

detour and I'm not going to sit there.

458

: 00:24:10

I'm not going to go, okay, well now

we can't do this because this was

459

: 00:24:13

supposed to be the session number five.

460

: 00:24:15

But it's interesting.

461

: 00:24:16

This is interesting.

462

: 00:24:17

So when I present them and I tell them

in advance, this is what I'm presenting.

463

: 00:24:21

This is your package.

464

: 00:24:24

Interestingly, I've had, and not in

a negative way, I've had clients come

465

: 00:24:29

back in the foreground and say, I don't

understand, like, I don't know how

466

: 00:24:34

I feel about influence because that

could be a topic and it happens to you.

467

: 00:24:38

It usually is.

468

: 00:24:40

The most powerful of the sessions that I

do, because I'm talking about influence,

469

: 00:24:45

persuasion, and they don't understand

at the time, what that entails, like

470

: 00:24:50

what comes into play there, whether it's

their communication or how they feel

471

: 00:24:54

small in a room, like you have no idea.

472

: 00:24:57

So sometimes they kind of

look at the framework and go.

473

: 00:25:01

I'm not really sure, but I'm going to

trust you because you are the coach

474

: 00:25:05

that, you're the captain of the ship.

475

: 00:25:07

I may not understand the path that

we're going to take to get where

476

: 00:25:10

we're going, but you're the captain.

477

: 00:25:12

I need to trust you.

478

: 00:25:14

And I think that's kind of the thing.

479

: 00:25:16

It's like they really don't know.

480

: 00:25:18

We don't even really know

where it's going to land.

481

: 00:25:21

You never know how it's going to go with

a client, but I think overall, I like

482

: 00:25:26

having topics and a frame and I'm loose.

483

: 00:25:30

I'm more loose with the actual

framework than I am with the topic.

484

: 00:25:36

Do you know what I mean?

485

: 00:25:37

Like, cause sometimes I've had

clients that are like, I know we're

486

: 00:25:40

supposed to be talking about courage

today, but, and there they go.

487

: 00:25:45

There's a fear.

488

: 00:25:46

So they're like, I really feel like I

need to talk more about productivity.

489

: 00:25:49

Yeah.

490

: 00:25:51

And I'm like, okay, so we're going to

tie those together and figure out why

491

: 00:25:54

you don't want to talk about courage.

492

: 00:25:55

Okay.

493

: 00:25:56

But, like that's the beauty of having that

flexibility, I think for us as coaches.

494

: 00:26:01

I cannot imagine at any point

getting on a call with anybody and

495

: 00:26:06

saying, so we had a discovery call.

496

: 00:26:10

How are you today?

497

: 00:26:12

Yeah.

498

: 00:26:12

We're like, so what's up?

499

: 00:26:14

What do you want to talk about?

500

: 00:26:15

I think that's where the framework can

really be a benefit is having that,

501

: 00:26:20

that's something that you as a coach use.

502

: 00:26:24

And to, to your point, John, getting

on those calls with people, it's like

503

: 00:26:27

anybody trying to sell you anything.

504

: 00:26:29

Hello, ma'am.

505

: 00:26:31

Welcome.

506

: 00:26:32

Thank you for speaking to me today.

507

: 00:26:34

And they try so hard to sound natural.

508

: 00:26:39

They, the inflection in

their voice and all of that.

509

: 00:26:41

And I'm like, you poor

thing, who trained you?

510

: 00:26:44

It's not your fault.

511

: 00:26:45

It's who trained you, right?

512

: 00:26:48

Because it just sounds so fake.

513

: 00:26:50

And I don't know, I think you're right.

514

: 00:26:52

People are more savvy these days.

515

: 00:26:53

And I think that's when you lose them

because you lose that authenticity of the

516

: 00:26:58

dynamic between yourself and the client.

517

: 00:27:00

John: Yeah.

518

: 00:27:01

Angie: been,

519

: 00:27:01

John: Also this, I mean, some of the

coaching I do, and perhaps you as well,

520

: 00:27:06

is a little more specific and directed.

521

: 00:27:08

So if I'm working with someone on their

presentation skills and you're mentioning

522

: 00:27:12

personal persuasion, I do specific

coaching in those areas with people.

523

: 00:27:16

I have to lead the way on that.

524

: 00:27:18

Because they don't know where to go.

525

: 00:27:20

So I have to pretty much lay stuff out

that this is what we're going to go.

526

: 00:27:23

But even with that, I've had stuff

come up in sessions that we've just

527

: 00:27:28

had to deal with in the session.

528

: 00:27:30

Angie: Absolutely.

529

: 00:27:31

John: That wasn't planned.

530

: 00:27:32

Now, if you end up with somebody's like,

I don't know why I'm crying about this.

531

: 00:27:36

This is like, yeah, I thought we were

just talking about putting, creating

532

: 00:27:40

an outline for a presentation.

533

: 00:27:42

And that's they're in tears.

534

: 00:27:43

They're like, why am I so upset?

535

: 00:27:45

There's other stuff going on and I'm

always going to, I'm not saying lean up,

536

: 00:27:49

I'm going to give that space and it's

just like, well, that's what's coming up.

537

: 00:27:53

So let's deal with that.

538

: 00:27:55

And I will say, this is okay.

539

: 00:27:56

You don't have to be concerned

about why this is happening.

540

: 00:28:00

Just know that it is and it's okay.

541

: 00:28:01

And this is a safe space for that.

542

: 00:28:03

So I let it out and let's see if

there's something here that we

543

: 00:28:05

need to talk about or process.

544

: 00:28:07

I would much rather do that.

545

: 00:28:09

And it might derail my plan

for the session, but so what.

546

: 00:28:13

Angie: Well, listen,

it's not about our plan.

547

: 00:28:15

That's the key.

548

: 00:28:16

That's my point.

549

: 00:28:16

Right.

550

: 00:28:17

It's not about our plan for the session.

551

: 00:28:20

It's about us, I think creating a spark

and that's how I look at each of my topics

552

: 00:28:25

is like, I'm looking to create a spark.

553

: 00:28:28

And the actual session itself is going to

dictate what type of flame I get, is it

554

: 00:28:35

kind of fizzling and I keep having to blow

on it and it's a little more difficult

555

: 00:28:39

or does it turn into this big roaring

bonfire flame where I know I've hit a,

556

: 00:28:43

we've hit a spot where we need to focus.

557

: 00:28:46

Also, if a topic, if I find a

topic, That is very it's turning

558

: 00:28:53

into a deeper conversation.

559

: 00:28:55

I know we haven't wasted any time.

560

: 00:28:58

I may be talking about something

or planning to talk about something

561

: 00:29:01

different in the next session, but

I need to give this topic space

562

: 00:29:05

and I will say, you know what?

563

: 00:29:07

Next, we were going to be talking

about this next time, but I'm

564

: 00:29:10

seeing that this may be something

we need to put some more work into.

565

: 00:29:14

What are your thoughts?

566

: 00:29:16

Yeah, I think so.

567

: 00:29:17

But I don't just go, okay, we'll

just talk about it next time.

568

: 00:29:19

I'll, I will give them a directive.

569

: 00:29:21

I will say, so this is what I'd

like you to do between now and then,

570

: 00:29:25

and give them some kind of call to

action that helps prepare for that.

571

: 00:29:30

Because I'm again, bird's eye view.

572

: 00:29:32

What am I seeing?

573

: 00:29:33

What do we need to focus on?

574

: 00:29:35

Because Usually, if it's that

big a content, if it's that big a

575

: 00:29:38

topic or session for them, there's

probably a lot of big stuff going on.

576

: 00:29:43

We can't hit all the big stuff.

577

: 00:29:45

So I'm very specific about what

I might want them to focus on.

578

: 00:29:49

And it might be, tell me two or

three things that be prepared to

579

: 00:29:54

discuss those in our next session.

580

: 00:29:56

Something like that, I

think that's important.

581

: 00:30:00

John: that is a number of the client

organizations that I worked with

582

: 00:30:04

that have had, has been general,

somewhat generalist coaching,

583

: 00:30:09

And some have been very

specific kind of coaching.

584

: 00:30:12

And even then you still, even when it is

specific, you're right, you need to have

585

: 00:30:16

space around that because other stuff's

going to come up from time to time.

586

: 00:30:20

It is still just a guide, a

framework for you to go through.

587

: 00:30:24

You still need to be there as a coach,

ultimately so yeah, there's a different,

588

: 00:30:28

there's different kinds of coaching.

589

: 00:30:29

So most of the time, if you're doing

coaching for an organization, you

590

: 00:30:33

may find yourself either doing their

path of coaching or you're doing kind

591

: 00:30:36

of more generalist coaching anyway.

592

: 00:30:38

If you have your own coaching practice,

the chances are you're going to be

593

: 00:30:41

a little bit more niche about it,

594

: 00:30:43

or you will need to be, and you need to

be offering a specific transformation

595

: 00:30:48

that you do need to have, or be able to

demonstrate that there is a framework,

596

: 00:30:52

there is a journey to take together.

597

: 00:30:54

That's also going to help set

the frame for your clients to now

598

: 00:30:57

have some level of what to expect.

599

: 00:31:00

on the journey and the sessions without

giving the whole thing away to them.

600

: 00:31:04

, it sets the tone, the pathway for them.

601

: 00:31:06

And this is the roadmap to transformation.

602

: 00:31:09

These are the elements that we need

to spend some time on in our sessions.

603

: 00:31:13

So I think for people who have

their own business as a coach,

604

: 00:31:16

you have that bit more niche down.

605

: 00:31:19

Being able to have your own framework,

which may be bits you've taken

606

: 00:31:23

from all sorts of other places, but

actually roadmaps the journey for

607

: 00:31:27

the client in an in a big picture

overview kind of way is really helpful.

608

: 00:31:32

Angie: Listen, I agree.

609

: 00:31:34

And I also feel like

nobody's going to hire me.

610

: 00:31:36

Like, well, I you brought up something

else that I hadn't thought about.

611

: 00:31:39

When I get hired by a company of any

size, they want to know, well, if we're

612

: 00:31:44

going to pay you X amount of dollars to

create a cohesive environment for our

613

: 00:31:50

community, what are you going to do?

614

: 00:31:52

The, how are you going to do it?

615

: 00:31:53

Because we're going to pay

you a lot of money to do this.

616

: 00:31:55

We want to know.

617

: 00:31:56

So again, I don't give them every little

detail, but I definitely draw the, from

618

: 00:32:01

A to B, think about a map or a recipe.

619

: 00:32:04

Here's the ingredients that

are going into the recipe.

620

: 00:32:07

I don't necessarily, I don't describe

what the eggs do in, within the

621

: 00:32:11

recipe, for example, but I do say,

like, these are the components

622

: 00:32:16

that go in and this is the outcome.

623

: 00:32:18

To your point, so I think it's

important that even if you're working

624

: 00:32:21

in a, one to one framework with a

client, not necessarily with a big

625

: 00:32:25

organization, it's gotta be the same.

626

: 00:32:28

They have to know what to expect.

627

: 00:32:30

And I tell people, I never ever make

a promise with the one on one, like by

628

: 00:32:35

the time we're done with this, you're

going to be able to do, I don't know

629

: 00:32:38

what they're going to be able to do.

630

: 00:32:39

Cause I don't know how this

is going to work for them.

631

: 00:32:42

So it is a little different

when you are consulting, right?

632

: 00:32:45

Because.

633

: 00:32:46

You're being a little bit more specific.

634

: 00:32:48

They want to know much more.

635

: 00:32:50

Like, what am I getting out of this?

636

: 00:32:51

I'm hiring you to work with our teams.

637

: 00:32:53

So I think that's important to

remember and keep top of mind,

638

: 00:32:57

but when you're working 1 to 1.

639

: 00:32:59

It's more intimate, right

out of the gate, right?

640

: 00:33:02

People, I have people telling me things

that they have never and would never,

641

: 00:33:06

they feel like, ever say to a spouse or

a family member or their best friend.

642

: 00:33:11

So it is that safe space

that you referred to earlier.

643

: 00:33:16

I don't feel like that's what you said.

644

: 00:33:18

I don't feel like that's what

happens when I'm working with,

645

: 00:33:21

like, a bigger organization.

646

: 00:33:23

However, nine times out of ten, I'd

probably get, I don't know, I wouldn't

647

: 00:33:29

even want to know the position, the

percentage at this point, but I have

648

: 00:33:33

people that go, I really love what we're

doing here, but I do want to go deeper.

649

: 00:33:37

Can I hire you?

650

: 00:33:39

Absolutely, you can hire me.

651

: 00:33:40

Right?

652

: 00:33:41

So that's good stuff.

653

: 00:33:42

Working in that one to one space

is usually much more intimate.

654

: 00:33:46

And I think because of that,

it does make sense to have

655

: 00:33:50

the flexibility to meet them.

656

: 00:33:52

Like you said, we could be

talking about, your skills in

657

: 00:33:55

speaking or anything like that.

658

: 00:33:57

And all of a sudden there's hysterics.

659

: 00:34:00

Might be sitting there going, I

was just talking about speech.

660

: 00:34:03

What just happened?

661

: 00:34:05

Well, something's there,

and you have to know how to

662

: 00:34:07

navigate that, when it happens.

663

: 00:34:13

John: a way that's gonna hopefully

support them and see it through help

664

: 00:34:16

them get to the other side of it.

665

: 00:34:18

Which I do find, which I do find usually

happens, and a lot of that just comes

666

: 00:34:21

from the fact that sometimes there's

just something in people that they

667

: 00:34:25

need to let out, and they just need

that safe space and that safe person

668

: 00:34:30

to be able to let stuff out with.

669

: 00:34:32

And that can often be

a resolution in itself.

670

: 00:34:35

It seems that our our general

consensus, if we can say that there

671

: 00:34:40

is that, I think for pretty close to

it is that the frameworks are good

672

: 00:34:43

to have the good guidelines that they

help you to keep things on track.

673

: 00:34:47

But we want to have lots of

flexibility around them as well.

674

: 00:34:50

And I think good coaches, we both seem

to think good coaches should be able

675

: 00:34:55

to maintain that, have a direction and

a path and a framework, but be super

676

: 00:35:00

flexible within that to the client

needs and directives, especially

677

: 00:35:04

stuff that comes up in the moment.

678

: 00:35:06

Angie: I think it's something that

practice makes, and I don't want to say

679

: 00:35:08

perfect because I, I don't believe in it.

680

: 00:35:10

But practice makes things

happen and that's great.

681

: 00:35:13

You're not going to maybe get

this right out of the gate and

682

: 00:35:16

may feel nerve wracking and wonky.

683

: 00:35:18

I think for some and I think for

others it might be more natural.

684

: 00:35:22

I think that a lot of how I navigate

through is because I've done frameworks

685

: 00:35:26

so many times that I don't have to go

back to a piece of paper and go, Oh

686

: 00:35:30

wait, what am I supposed to ask here?

687

: 00:35:32

Right?

688

: 00:35:32

It becomes just more second nature.

689

: 00:35:36

And that's the beauty.

690

: 00:35:37

That's how, like I can navigate this.

691

: 00:35:39

I can create an open forum, if you will.

692

: 00:35:43

While maintaining control at

the same time of the session.

693

: 00:35:47

So all good stuff.

694

: 00:35:50

John: Well, I hope that helps our

listener as well and certainly I

695

: 00:35:54

think having some examples of stuff

that goes into coaching very much

696

: 00:35:57

It's probably quite helpful as well

697

: 00:35:59

Angie: Yeah

698

: 00:35:59

John: That they're good to use just

don't be too rigid around it and she has

699

: 00:36:03

always this has been a fun Conversation

and I think we should come back.

700

: 00:36:08

We've got so many things

we want to discuss, right?

701

: 00:36:10

We've got

702

: 00:36:11

this huge You Yeah.

703

: 00:36:12

Yeah.

704

: 00:36:13

This huge list of topics.

705

: 00:36:14

I was like, all right, that'd be great.

706

: 00:36:15

Sure.

707

: 00:36:15

That'd be great.

708

: 00:36:16

Sure.

709

: 00:36:17

Composite.

710

: 00:36:17

And so we are not going to run short of

ideas for what we're going to talk about

711

: 00:36:21

in this episodes anytime soon, we're

going to be back with more for you next

712

: 00:36:25

week and we hope you'll join us for that.

713

: 00:36:26

And in the meantime do leave

us a message on our voicemail.

714

: 00:36:30

It's free.

715

: 00:36:31

It's online.

716

: 00:36:31

And we'd love to hear from you.

717

: 00:36:33

It's speakpipe.

718

: 00:36:34

com go to speakpipe.

719

: 00:36:35

com forward slash the coaching clinic

podcast and leave us a message.

720

: 00:36:39

And we will probably, most likely feature

on the show if you do, so long as it's

721

: 00:36:44

not filth or we don't want filth, don't

722

: 00:36:46

leave us filth, leave us, we might

not, we might, we do want that, but we

723

: 00:36:51

don't want to feature it on the show.

724

: 00:36:53

So, so do leave us your voice

messages and we'll look forward to

725

: 00:36:56

hearing you and in the meantime,

have yourselves an amazing week.

726

: 00:36:59

Angie: Bye for now