Navigating Client Relationships: When and How to Refer Clients
Navigating the End of Coaching Relationships: When to Refer and Let Go
In this episode, Angie and John dive into the challenging aspects of coaching, including when and how to end coaching relationships.
They discuss the importance of recognizing when a client may need therapy instead of coaching, knowing one's limits as a coach, and the value of referring clients to other professionals when necessary.
Angie shares her strategy of pausing long-term clients to encourage them to implement what they've learned, while John stresses the importance of continuous personal development for coaches.
The hosts emphasize maintaining integrity in client relationships and offer practical advice for managing rapport and avoiding over-dependence.
Tune in for insightful discussions on sustaining effective and ethical coaching practices.
keywords
coaching, referral, coaching relationship, therapy, boundaries, personal development
takeaways
- Know when to refer a client to another professional, such as a therapist, if they need more specialized help.
- Maintain boundaries and avoid blurring the lines between coaching and other professions.
- Take breaks in the coaching relationship to allow clients to implement what they've learned and gain clarity.
- Continuously work on personal development to stay on the leading edge of coaching and provide value to clients.
titles
- Knowing When to Refer a Client
- Taking Breaks to Implement and Gain Clarity
Sound Bites
- "Just because you have your psychologist or a psychiatrist and the coach, if you're in a coaching relationship, just because you have that psychiatric background, sure it can inform what you do. But if you end up becoming the psychiatrist in the situation."
- "Psychoanalysis is much more where you need to dive deeper into the issues and probably stay, work with them for a long time. Coaching is much more solution focused and was all about taking action, getting things moving forward."
- "Let them go for a minute actually brings on like they might have clarity on something and go, wow, that was really amazing. But what's the next question mark?"
00:00 Introduction and Personal Reflections on Coaching
01:36 When to Refer a Client
03:13 Blurring the Lines Between Coaching and Therapy
04:56 Maintaining Professional Boundaries
19:55 The Importance of Personal Development for Coaches
25:58 Engaging with the Audience
Transcript
Angie,
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:Angie: John.
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:John: do you ever get bored of coaching?
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:Angie: No, never.
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:Why, do you?
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:John: Well, I had a brief period where
I fell out of love with it for a while,
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:but eventually I realized it's in my DNA.
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:Angie: Alright, so then, what
do you do in the meantime?
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:John: I joined the circus.
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:Angie: you mean a job in sales?
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:John: Yep, I took a job in sales.
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:But what about clients, Angie?
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:Have you ever got bored
with a certain client?
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:Angie: I'm gonna take
the fifth on that one.
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:John: Very wise, but have you
gotten to points where the coaching
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:relationship needed to end?
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:Angie: Of course, absolutely.
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:But what have you done
in those situations?
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:John: Oh, that's easy.
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:I just ghost them.
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:Angie: You did what?
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:All right.
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:Once again, we need to talk.
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:Let's get started with the show.
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:John: Okay, this is a fun topic and
probably isn't going to take us all that
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:long today, although we always say that.
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:But we're talking about when are
the right times to refer a client?
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:When does the coaching
relationship need to end?
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:Or you recognize that coaching
isn't what the person needs, or that
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:you're not what the person needs.
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:What are the times that you've experienced
that Angie, as a professional coach?
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:Angie: So you talked about a few
different things there all in one breath.
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:John: I like,
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:Angie: like, yeah, because no, and I
think it's good because I think it's
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:great to point out to our audience that.
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:There are different scenarios and
different situations where I don't
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:ever look at the relationship
as though it maybe needs to end.
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:I don't think I ever, you said
that and I was like, what?
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:I don't think I ever
looked at it like that.
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:So first thing, when to
refer somebody, right?
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:So I have definitely referred people
we've talked in past sessions.
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:We've talked about like if somebody like
is really more in need of like therapy.
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:Right.
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:And we've talked about gently guiding
them and saying, maybe, and I'm not
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:saying that you can't coach at the
same time that somebody is in therapy.
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:Right.
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:But we've, so we've talked about that.
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:You're not a therapist and if you
are and you're able to incorporate
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:into your coaching, that's fine.
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:But if you don't have the
credentials, you need to definitely
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:sidestep that and refer people to.
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:Either somebody that you trust and say,
Hey, I can recommend somebody or just
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:gently nudge them toward that direction.
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:So that's one way to
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:John: But I want to interrupt that
because I know coaches who do that.
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:And I have this feeling about just
because you can go outside of the
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:bounds of your coaching relationship
with your knowledge or expertise, I
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:don't think that means that you should.
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:Just because you have, maybe you're
a psychologist or a psychiatrist
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:and a coach, if you're in a coaching
relationship, just because you
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:have that psychiatric background,
sure, it can inform what you do.
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:But if you end up becoming the
psychiatrist in the situation, you've
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:changed the relationship to a degree.
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:And also, you're probably not getting
paid anything like, what you could be
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:getting, what you should be getting
for what you're doing with the clients.
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:I see this a lot with coaches.
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:I know coaches who are in that position,
who have that level of expertise.
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:And I do think it, it's not so much
about blurring the lines of the client
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:relationship as it is about having that
value on what you do and what you offer
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:to people and keeping the delineations
there, I've been able to say, well, just
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:because I just, let's just say for us,
but just because we've done a lot of
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:work with people to set up professional
speaking businesses, doesn't mean that
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:you get to have that for free in a
coaching session where we're actually just
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:working on some other area of your life.
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:It's you want to work with
me specifically on that.
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:We're going to have to renegotiate.
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:We have to talk about
some different pricing.
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:Do you get what I mean there?
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:Angie: Yeah, listen, I get it.
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:I absolutely, I definitely, I even agree.
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:I just know that there's, I
don't know the people that, I've
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:watched people blur the lines.
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:And although I don't agree with it, I know
that there would be definitive pushback.
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:If somebody was like, well, I'm a
PhD and I have this and I have that.
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:I feel that I have more insights
and I think I can be an authority.
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:That's on them.
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:I don't recommend it.
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:I do recommend personally
deciding who you want to be.
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:Do you want to be their therapist
or do you want to be their coach?
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:Because how my vision of
how you approach therapy.
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:Coaching versus therapy
are very different.
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:It's not even just technique and things.
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:There's a difference in, I don't want
to take people back to like when you
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:were two and now I don't do that.
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:I want to have an understanding, but my
coaching is always about taking people
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:forward and not leaving them stuck.
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:So, and I'm not saying,
okay, be aware of that.
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:I don't mean that therapists
leave people stuck.
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:But I don't do deep dives into
daddy issues and mommy issues
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:and things like that, right?
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:That's not what I do so I think you know
you pointing that out is very I think
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:it's important to understand so yeah, so
I think that if some people are really
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:super stuck in the pain and in the You
know the things that you just can't get
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:them out of that are very deep seated
then You know referring them to that type
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:of professional Is important but then
There's the other there, I have definitely
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:come across clients who, although I could
have still helped them move forward, they
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:needed a different type of coach than me.
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:Right?
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:So it's, it also comes down to who
you are as a coach and what your
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:methodologies are and things like that.
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:And I have done that twice where
I've said, you know what, I want
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:to, this is not going, I don't
think this is what you need.
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:This is what I'm seeing.
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:How do you feel about that?
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:I can refer you and then kind of do that.
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:And I have done that more where somebody
is looking for like specifically business
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:consulting, tell me how to do this.
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:Tell me how to market.
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:That's not really what I do.
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:No.
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:And John, come on, give me a look.
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:Should I be the person they talk to about
their marketing and their technology?
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:John: not the technology.
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:Right.
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:But yeah, it's
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:Angie: don't
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:John: It's one of those things.
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:No, I mean, I have background in all,
but we all have very backgrounds.
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:I know you, you and I have a lot of
expertise from other areas that we
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:can bring into our coaching and most
elements of that can inform the coaching.
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:I think we have to watch the
lines between are we actually
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:providing a little bit too much?
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:Well, I still think, yeah,
great to provide lots of.
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:Additional value to your customers to a
point at what point is that just devaluing
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:the other stuff that you have and blurring
those lines is like I do think you need
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:to have, like you say, have your identity
as a coach, know what you're about.
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:Because this show is ultimately about
coaching and I do think there is a
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:difference between psychoanalysis
and coaching psychoanalysis, much
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:more where you need to dive deeper
into the issues and probably don't
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:stay work with them for a long time.
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:Coaching is much more solution
focused and was all about taking
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:action, getting things moving forward.
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:They are very different outcomes and that
don't necessarily work well together.
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:That's not
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:Angie: disagree.
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:I think if you've experienced it
and for anybody who hasn't, it
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:may feel like, what do you mean?
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:I don't get that.
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:But I think I only clearly
understood that when I came
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:across people who were in need.
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:And I realized and recognized like, wow,
this is really intensive and somebody
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:needs more than, what I am willing or
able really more able to give to them.
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:Yeah.
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:So when have you, if
ever referred somebody?
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:John: too many times.
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:So, certainly I've been in situations
where I've been in teams with coaches.
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:You and I both have had that experience
where I've been able to say, you know
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:what, actually, this is the, this is
probably a coach that you, who you should
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:work with on this particular issue.
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:Or where the rapport is off.
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:And I think you might be
better with another coach.
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:I've been able to do that
in certain situations.
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:But not too often, it really
hasn't come up all that often.
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:The times where it's been most important
though, has been where there is more of
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:a natural end to the coaching, more of a
natural end to the coaching relationship.
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:So at a point where it's I can think,
well, I think we've brought this up.
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:Certainly I think you probably
mentioned it a number of times on
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:recordings that we've done already.
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:of this whole thing of checking in with
people to make sure they're still getting
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:the value from what they're doing.
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:And it's really important to know
that if they're going to continue
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:working with you, like we, we spoke
recently about, I think I had a client
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:that was with me for 12 years or so.
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:It was the longest, had certainly
had a number of others that were
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:like five, six, seven years as well.
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:Probably more average for most of my
clients over my lifetime has been more
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:of a three year renewal period which
is still pretty, still pretty decent
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:and a long time to work with people.
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:But even then there has come
times where the renewal is probably
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:isn't going to happen, but we just
don't want, I think the work we've
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:done together is kind of done.
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:Are you looking to move on to
your coaching relationship?
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:So it's either been trying to give
them some advice as to how to move
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:in and afford with their coaching
relationship and keep something going.
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:Or as you're saying it, here's
someone who would actually be
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:better for you to work with.
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:I've probably done more referring
in discovery calls, though, than I
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:ever have with long term clients.
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:Yeah,
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:Angie: once you were in it.
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:So I think those, that's two different
things for me, what you just mentioned.
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:First thing is I want to caution
people that our instinct is,
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:whether it's rapport, right?
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:You mentioned if it's not great rapport,
or even if it's something like, Hey, I
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:want to help with business consulting.
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:And that's really what I want.
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:I'm a believer that everybody
can be coached, anybody.
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:You sit any person down in front of me,
I can find something to coach them on.
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:Right.
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:I can do that, but not
everybody's a believer in that.
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:So I think that for me, there have been
times where I have intentionally paused
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:a longer term client so that they do it.
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:And I know a lot of people
don't believe in this, but.
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:So that they can actually go out and
put some things into, it's almost like
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:somebody who was into rehab, right?
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:30, 60, 90, a hundred duty whatever
you do, there comes a point where you
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:kind of have to be taking everything
you've learned and putting it into
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:practice, but the reason that I say
that the pause is important is we're
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:not here to solve every single issue.
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:So you want to be able to kind of,
I want to be able to kind of say,
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:okay, what are they actually doing
when they're out there and they're
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:not in coaching every single week?
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:And I usually put it on again, 90 day
pause and with an understanding that
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:we're going to meet on this date,
we're going to kind of go do another,
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:but I do like a 30 minute discovery
and say, okay, where have you been at?
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:What's been happening?
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:What's the transformation?
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:What helped?
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:What didn't?
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:So that now I can take
them to a new space.
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:I can intentionally say, okay.
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:Knowing what you know and
implementing what you did.
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:What would be next for you?
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:that's how i've kept the majority
of my ongoing clients because They
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:know I really want them to go out.
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:I mean after five years or six years or
seven years with somebody I need to know
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:that it's not just There's a lot going on.
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:There's a lot going on in that time.
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:So I want to see what's really
hitting And the best way for that
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:to happen and then for them as well,
and it's really a big accountability.
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:I mean, for me as a coach, because
if they go out and they go, wow, I
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:can't believe I'm really implementing
these bigger strategies, these bigger
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:tools, then that's huge for them.
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:So now they actually see much more value.
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:I've not had anybody, I can't,
I'm not being ego about this, but
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:I've not had anybody come back and
say, no, nothing changed for me.
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:You suck.
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:Nobody's ever done that.
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:What they've done is they've
come back much more enlightened.
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:So that's just what I do
and how it's worked for me.
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:John: think there have been a bunch of
times where The coaching relationships
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:I've had with people have resumed after a
period of time where they wanted to come
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:That's nice.
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:Sometimes again, you want to make sure
it's right for them to come back and say,
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:okay, well, why do you want to come back?
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:What is it you want to work on?
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:And maybe it isn't even just for
a short while, but always there's
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:progress that seems to be done, but
it's nice that they recognize that.
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:All right, well, you helped me
get to this point before and now
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:I'm ready to get to a new point.
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:Is that great?
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:You can do that.
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:But again, you have to just trust
your own instinct and judgment as
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:a coach as to, are you the right
person to be doing this with them?
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:Or should they, are they
becoming maybe dependent on you?
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:Are they, is there expectations that
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:aren't so healthy there?
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:But I haven't really faced
those issues too often.
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:I wonder if other people have.
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:Or be.
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:I'd be interested to hear from our
listener and see have you faced these
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:situations where you're not sure
if you should continue the coaching
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:relationship or not at some point.
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:Yeah,
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:Angie: saying something before and I don't
know where I went, somewhere in the woods.
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:But the thing that I wanted to caution
people on is two different spaces.
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:If you feel like the rapport really
isn't there don't latch on to them
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:because you're afraid of losing
a client or money or something.
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:That's the first thing.
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:Really be true to your craft because if
you hold on, chances are you're not going
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:to gain traction with them later, and
that's only going to lead to bad reviews.
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:I think if you're honest up front
and say, hey, I thought this was okay
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:during a discovery call or something,
but I feel like, and maybe you try
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:to resolve it, maybe, but if you
can't, don't be afraid to let it go.
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:Don't be afraid.
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:The second piece is kind of to what I
said, I'm not saying that everybody should
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:subscribe to what I just said let them go.
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:If you set them free, they'll come
back if they're supposed to like, no,
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:but I have had, I've worked with some
really high level people and they really
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:appreciate that John's laughing at me.
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:That I really appreciate that.
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:That I'm willing to say, you know
what, why don't we take 30, 45 days?
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:That's enough time for you to really
see if what implement these things,
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:what would, what's most important for
you out of all the work we've done.
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:And then let's revisit this.
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:There's the urge to, I got to
get her to sign up right now.
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:Yes, I believe that in sales, it's strike
while the iron is hot while they love you.
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:You're on the honeymoon phase,
but for a higher level client, if
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:they're actually seeing change.
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:They're coming back and they're going to
come back and they're going to come back.
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:So I would say that
just take the fear away.
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:Don't clutch onto them and get
your talons in them for dear life.
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:Because I think that is
what everybody wants to do.
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:And I've had more than half
of those people say, wow,
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:what a breath of fresh air.
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:I'm not generally, I'm not their
first coach and I'm not just trying
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:to think they really undertake.
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:Oh, wow.
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:She really.
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:Gives a crap about me
doing better, being better.
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:No,
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:John: of can you want to ideally make a
sale whilst it's fresh in people's minds.
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:People do tend to forget about things.
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:However, I think in those conversations,
in my experience, it's If you actually
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:make the arrangement and say, Hey let's
check back in again, let's set, make an
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:appointment we'll just be like a five
minute chat for 30 days from now, 45
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:days from now, whenever you decide that
tab is left open, okay maybe there's
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:the whole thing will run a place, not
so hard by them, but that mental tab
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:has been left open and then they're
going to be checking in with you.
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:I'm sure, of course, they can
cancel whatever stuff comes out.
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:Family issues are the ones, the usual
sort of things if they don't really
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:want to do it, but that's fine.
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:That just means they don't
really want to do it.
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:But for everyone else, it's certainly you
can come back and have those check ins.
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:And often people do really appreciate
that and say, so there's no pressure here.
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:It's just if you decide that if this is
the point where you're ready, then great.
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:Let's check in and let's
at least see where you are.
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:And sometimes I can go on for a while.
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:I've had several of those with
people in the past, but, and
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:they have sometimes come back.
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:But not always.
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:Angie: and listen, I haven't had, you
and I have talked statistics before.
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:I've shared some of my
statistics with you.
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:Over time, my statistics in terms
of people re enrolling in with
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:me, has increased exponentially.
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:That's what I'm going to say.
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:You and I've talked the numbers,
I'm not going to get into the
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:numbers, but it's a lot, right?
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:Would you agree?
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:Wow, that's not so, and it's not,
again I don't think it's because
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:I'm so amazing and the bravest thing
since sliced bread, but I do think
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:it's because I am the way that I am.
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:And I tell people from the very
beginning, everybody needs coaching.
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:I don't care if you're for 10 years.
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:What we don't want is things to
become mundane and orally familiar,
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:which is why letting them go for
a minute actually brings on they
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:might have clarity on something and
go, wow, that was really amazing.
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:But what's the next question mark?
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:There's always think about life.
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:There's always a new flip
and question mark, always.
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:John, you know me.
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:Come on.
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:Every time we talk, there's
a question mark for me.
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:John: I look, I think that the words,
look, the words I hear out of your
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:mouth more than any or anything else.
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:I think it's, let me
ask you a question, I,
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:Angie: Wait, let me ask you this.
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:Right.
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:Can I just ask you this?
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:Can I just, right.
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:I, John knows.
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:Let me ask you this, but this is
funny if you only knew, but but so,
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:so if I have as a coach truly believe
that there's always more, right.
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:Sometimes in the beginning
it's easier, right.
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:We're just kind of, we're mining
with them, if you will, like to
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:what the issues are, the challenges,
and we have to kind of sift through
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:and take out the bigger pieces.
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:And then maybe it's later on that
those smaller pieces come, but I
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:am a believer that I could coach
somebody for 50 years and still
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:always find the next new challenge.
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:And, I think that the longer you are in
a relationship with a client, the more
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:challenging the coaching actually becomes
because you're not looking at all the
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:obvious as you are in the beginning.
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:So yeah.
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:John: I, something just came up for me
there, but I think it's really important.
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:And again, this may be, I don't
think this is something I have
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:on our potential episodes list.
368
:So I might add it on there, but one
of the reasons why I feel that I've
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:been able to maintain very long term
coaching relationships over the years.
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:is because I consistently work
on my personal development, like
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:consistently,
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:Angie: Ooh, he's so fun goolish right now.
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:John: but this is, I really am not
trying to impress anyone by this.
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:It's just, it's one of those
things that ended up becoming super
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:important for me very early on.
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:I think when I first got back into
coaching and personal development and
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:when I first got involved in it I probably
hadn't picked up a book for years, like
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:my education is finished when I finished
my degree and I closed my last book.
379
:So other than the manuals I had to read
when I joined the airline and the yearly
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:checks on that, those were the only
books I probably ever read afterwards.
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:Until I
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:Angie: So once you flip the
tassel, it was over for you.
383
:John: yeah, until I got into personal
development and the whole thing of
384
:becoming I guess a learning machine, if
you like, That became really important
385
:to me, so much so that it just has
become a daily habit of always reading
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:something, always having audio books
on the go, listening to podcasts.
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:There's always growth.
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:There's always ideas and consistent
development because it allows me to
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:keep growing and developing, which
means there is always new things to talk
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:about with people or to help people.
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:new resources, new ideas to
work with other people on.
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:And my knowledge and experience
bank is ever expanding.
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:Also from potentially from other
coaching sessions, from the
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:work I do with other coaches.
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:So that learning growth journey and the
coaches that I've had along the way as
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:well, have kept me And I'd say it feels
like I'm the leading edge of coaching.
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:Like just being able to consistently
say, we're not gonna run out of things.
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:As you say, we're not gonna
run outta things to coach on.
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:We could work together for 50 years.
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:Angie: Listen, and you know what?
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:I'm always careful too.
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:Like I agree.
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:And I love that.
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:And 10, 000%, I could be talking about
any specific topic and every, I mean,
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:if you saw my desk, sometimes I have
to keep post it notes in my drawer
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:because I never know when even a client
might say something that I'm like,
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:Ooh, that was really whatever, right?
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:And I write it down because any recipe,
that I get any information, I have
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:to play with it and tweak it and.
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:Do more with it.
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:That's just ingrained in me and you're
right because I'm certainly not coaching
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:the way I did 10 5 or even 2 years
ago because I knew and more relevant
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:information Right, sometimes even
our environment, the world even can
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:affect how we approach certain things.
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:So we have to keep ourselves
relevant, but I also think that
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:if we're constantly developing and
growing then of course You Right.
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:Then it makes sense that our, we're
able to pass that on to our clients.
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:It's not, from 10 years ago, not stagnant.
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:John: I was just thinking of this
probably terrible metaphor, really
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:But
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:Angie: Oh my word,
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:what?
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:John: when I used to go to my
grandparents' house there was
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:always a pot of stew on the stove
on a low light, like, all the time.
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:And it would consistently have
stuff added to it, so it Yeah,
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:it was they would call it scouse.
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:So this is like in Merseyside,
Liverpool kind of area, scouses is like
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:named after this famous mince stew.
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:But this was always on the stove.
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:So vegetables and things
would always get into it.
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:It would stay on the stove on a low light
for forever, just cooking thing forever.
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:At least that's what it seemed like.
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:So there'd always be fresh stuff getting
added to it and the stew would keep
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:growing and growing back and expanding.
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:I don't know if it's the best
metaphor because it's like, well,
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:a lot of those vegetables were
very stewed after a long time, but
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:I'm not sure how healthy that was.
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:However it kept it going and it kept thing
expanding and renewing and refreshing.
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:And then that's, I guess that's where
that terrible metaphor came into my head.
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:Angie: But I get it, right?
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:It's you're so, I can't even right now.
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:He's just giggling at himself,
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:I think it's important to recognize
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:John: I can make
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:you just
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:Angie: I think that's amazing.
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:I love, I actually was sitting there
going, Ooh, what was it like in there?
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:I just brought back my own memories, but
things do change and things do evolve
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:.
And it's okay to, give your clients a break.
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:It's okay to, not just want to
pull, grasp on for dear life.
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:And, you don't hold on and get up this
vision of somebody being like dragging
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:some, grabbing onto somebody's ankles
and being dragged across the floor.
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:Like we don't want that.
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:And honestly, I think people will
have more respect for the craft
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:because there's so many more coaches.
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:There's so much competition that
I see a lot of new coaches coming
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:into the business, even if they
came from a higher level position
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:with that almost desperation,
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:John: a good
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:Angie: That mindset of lack and I'm
like, Hey, just be, you do some little
461
:things a little bit different and for
God's sake, don't sound, go on LinkedIn.
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:Don't sound like everybody else.
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:What's going to be the differentiator?
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:Because whatever that is in the beginning
is what it should be for you ongoing.
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:Think about how if you want
a client to refer you, what
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:would you want them to say?
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:About you and that's who you need to be.
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:Angie is fair.
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:All my, all of my
testimonials, she's tough.
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:She's fair.
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:I'm like, that's it.
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:I'm tough.
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:And I'm fair.
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:That's the true.
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:I mean, those aren't exactly always the
words that they use, but I'm consistently
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:that and she really challenges me.
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:John: Yeah, I think probably some of my
clients would say some similar things,
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:certainly that I will often say what
needs to be said, what they need to
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:hear, rather than what they want to hear.
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:That's a good, that's good to, a good
attitude to have is that you don't
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:need to hang on to those clients.
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:But look, I mean, for our listener
out there listening to this, you
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:may have questions about this.
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:You may have experiences that you'd like
to share with us that are different to
485
:ours or even different opinions on some
of the things we've talked about today.
486
:We would love to hear from you.
487
:So get in touch with us.
488
:You can leave us a voicemail for the show.
489
:It's speakpipe.
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:com forward slash the
coaching clinic podcast.
491
:Or come and find us on LinkedIn.
492
:Come and connect with myself and Angie.
493
:You'll see me posting lots
of stuff about the show.
494
:You'll see Angie posting
lots of nuggets of wisdom.
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:So do come and connect with us as well.
496
:We'd love to see you
and hear your questions.
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:And for the meantime, we will look
forward to connecting with you again
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:next week for another amazing episode.
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:See you then.
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:Angie: Bye for now.