The Authentic Coach: Walking Your Talk

John: 00:00:00

Angie.

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Angie: John.

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John: What

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does authenticity mean to you as a coach?

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Angie: Ooh, big question.

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I love it.

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Authenticity for me is being who I am as a

coach, No matter what the session brings.

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How about you?

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John: If we step aside from the

ways that the word has been perhaps

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overused and abused for me in essence,

it's about being true to yourself.

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Angie: All right.

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So then what does being

true to yourself look like?

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John: I usually am a little bit cheeky

and a dash of my dry English sarcasm.

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I mean, wit.

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How about you?

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Angie: Oh, if everybody

only knew how true that is.

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I think for me, it's definitely

giving the full Angie experience.

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John: The full Angie experience,

you hold some things back, right?

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Angie: Yeah, but the full Angie experience

is the full Angie as a coach experience.

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John: I got you, right.

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We have different versions of

ourselves for different situations.

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Angie: Yeah.

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It makes you wonder how we

managed to remain authentic.

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John: I agree.

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Shall we get into it?

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Angie: Absolutely.

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Let's start the show.

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John: Angie, I like this topic.

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I wanted to do this simply because, we

hear that word authenticity a lot, right?

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I mean, it's

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Overused definitely abused in the personal

and professional development world to

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some points it's almost become meaningless

And I don't think it's a word that ever

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could or ever should become meaningless

to people It really is about being like

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the oracle of Delphi said know thyself

and it's like when we know ourselves we

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can be ourselves but how is authenticity

relevant to you in your coaching practice?

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Angie: I think what I kind of said in the

beginning is really my truth in that is,

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you know, I have had experiences where

I'm in the middle of a coaching session.

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And I have to decide as a coach

what to do in that moment, right?

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So it could, and it's usually when I

hit a pain point with a client and you

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know, there's emotion or there's fear or

there's like withdrawal and, or anger,

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which we talked about, I had a client

that was like, you know, mother effing

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me and I was like, Oh no, no, no, no.

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But still like staying the course and

realizing I'm there for a purpose.

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I'm not there for the expensive cup of

coffee that I reference all the time.

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To really stay true to the course.

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John: I certainly see early days in

coaching where you're maybe more rigidly

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following frameworks or however, you've

learned to become a coach You may find

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yourself being a little less you and more

the frameworks or more the tool or the

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vehicle for the material rather than You

and your own intuition which you know can

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take time to develop some people I agree.

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I would say some people have that

more naturally and some people it

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takes a little while to develop

that but but it is at the point I

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would Maybe compare it to learning a

musical instrument or learning a song.

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Learning to play a song

on a musical instrument.

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That the first time, first several

times you play it through, It's gonna,

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it's not going to feel very natural.

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It's going to, you're going

to have to stop and start.

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You're going to have to take this out.

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It's not going to be smooth and it's

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not going to be particularly

wonderful to listen to either.

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But once you've learned that piece of

music, once you know, in fact, I'd say

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to the, for most musicians, once you

know it to the point where you don't

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need to look at the sheet music anymore,

that's the point at which it's in you.

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It's big, it's a part of you.

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And then you can inject yourself.

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Into that and I think it's there's

a similar thing with coaching here.

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Like you have to know what you're

doing well enough that you have to

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be able to dance the dance until the

dance dances you if that makes sense.

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Angie: Yeah.

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No, I think that's absolutely true.

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I think that's how we create flow.

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You know, I experienced this more

while I was training coaches.

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And they were, to your point, they

were learning a framework and I had

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to, cause right, I'm, I was in that

space of training them, but I was

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coaching them into the training, right?

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So I had to be mindful that they

weren't yet in flow because they were

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still learning the framework and I

looked for other cues from them, right?

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Did they have great followup questions?

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Did they start letting their

guard down a little bit?

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and take that time to read the session.

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Cause I think that's where the

authenticity, like you're saying, comes

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in and it creates that flow and rapport

and it really helps you to Figure out

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who you're going to be as a coach, right?

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So I think that's important for people

to realize that there's different

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ways to be authentic within not just

within a session, but as a coach,

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John: I also see I think I had some

experience with this myself really

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of There are certain people you're

probably going to come across that

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you'll think, oh, that's so good.

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They're so good at what they do.

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They're such good coaches.

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I know this has Come up for us before

but I want to be more like them that

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you could end up Modeling yourself a

little bit too much Or thinking that

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their way of doing it is the right way

of doing it and that you should be more

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like that we often tend to assume other

people are better at things than us or

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that other people have the right way

and we don't have it figured out right,

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Angie: right?

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I think in that same token, I've had

that experience where as I was coaching

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and training, I had, if I was showing

like an alternative response to a

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situation with somebody that I was.

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Mentoring or training.

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They tried to be Angie and I would

call them right out and go, you

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are, and it's not, I'm saying this,

so do not come at me everybody.

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But my answer was, you're not me yet.

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you are, you don't have that.

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You don't have that

confidence and conditioning.

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And if you do that or you say that in a

session, you're going to derail yourself

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because you don't know what to do and

say and how to follow up after that.

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And it could have been something like

making a bold statement or asking

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a bold question and going really?

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So what's the pain behind that?

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If you don't have the gumption to

carry that through, don't do that.

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So anyway, that's obviously

ultra specific, but it can

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work on the flip side, right?

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We're the coaching clinic, right?

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You and I are both coaches.

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We do different things.

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But I feel like there is a lot

of synergy between what we do

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because you know, you sound softer.

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I mean, I'm calling it out right

now, but you're not, you just don't

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have the New York, New Jersey.

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Arizona accent.

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John: But

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you

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do I lull people into a false sense of

security, It kind of does yeah, it's a

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bit of a It's a bit of a bait and switch.

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I agree because when we get into it like

people well, generally when people A

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lot of people end up working with you

privately have either already Worked

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with me in group settings before or

they're familiar with me From my podcast

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or from other stuff that i've done and

so That they already have that sense

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of they know there's a softness there,

but they also know You They're going

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to have their feet held to the fire.

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They also know it's I'm not going to,

never going to be mean about things.

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I'm going to be very pragmatic.

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We kind of stay on a, mostly

stay on a level with it.

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So yeah, it's but for those people

who maybe have come to me and not

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known what I was like, yeah, I

think they probably do feel it's

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good in a sense, because I'm not.

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I do feel that helps

people to naturally open up

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I I feel it's like creating that

safe space for them to be able

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to do that and And again, it's

not when I say bait and switch.

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I'm not really lying about who I

am or what I do that's just how we

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we're leading into some of the deeper

work that we're going to do later

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Angie: Yeah.

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I, something you said earlier, the quote

that you brought forth is, you can't

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be yourself until you know yourself.

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So if you are a newer coach, You

need to, and it's not something

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that I think that you can like just

go, Oh, I want to be this coach.

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So let me be that maybe, right.

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You might pick up bits and pieces of

other coaches that you see and you go,

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okay, what was it about the way Angie

said what she said that made me want to

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kind of put that into my, what was that?

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Oh, she was being direct.

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So if that's something that

resonates, then you say, okay am I?

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You know, cause it's a skill, right?

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You can learn the skillset, right?

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And then kind of start putting all

the ingredients of the recipe to make

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the who you want to be as a coach.

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I'm still learning that even after all of

these years, it's not like you're going to

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arrive at this specific space as a coach.

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You know, you're going to keep

learning and you're going to shift.

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Ongoing because that's how you as

a coach, you will grow, but I'm

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still authentic because I'm still

direct no matter what I'm learning.

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And I'm always like, I'm always keeping

the client top of mind, not my own agenda.

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And that's a big piece of my own

authenticity is that I do hear them.

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I do listen.

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And it's not what I think

it's supposed to be.

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And I think a lot of coaches

run into that as a little bit

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of a little speed bump, right?

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Because of expectations and things that

we've talked about on previous episodes.

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But so for you, How do you know,

I, this is what I'm curious, how

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do you actually know when you're in

a session, not reflecting, right,

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when you're in it, whether you're

really being authentic or not?

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John: It is the small voice that comes

up in the back of my head of am I gonna

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ask the question or to give the response

that I feel I should give that's the

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one to give or am I gonna be diplomatic

or I'm gonna am I gonna hold back so

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yeah that really for me is telling me

whether I'm authentic or not and look

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to be honest with you are coaching

situations that I even still have now

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where i'm not full on John basically where

i'm kind of like a Curated more curated

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version of myself because i'm supposed

to fit in with someone else's model As

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well, so I can't go full out all me.

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I have to also be

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so some degree the voice of The people

who I'm working with or representing.

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So, so there are elements where I

might hold back and not say some of

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the things that I might would say

if a client had actually come to

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me directly, but if a client's gone

to someone else directly, they may

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want some slightly different things.

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And so there is a different version

of how I show up, but we, This is the

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thing about we all have these different

versions of ourselves for how we show

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up in different circumstances, whether

some people may not agree with that,

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but this idea that I've often seen that

being authentic is being your true self

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in every situation, no matter what.

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It's I'm sorry I'm not the same

person in my professional life

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that I am in my personal life.

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I'm not the same.

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Angie: lie right there, folks.

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No.

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If

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you heard the conversations

before we record, now I'm joking.

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John is pretty

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John: Kind of, kind of, but if you, if

we were out, if we were out on a Friday

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night in some bars and stuff, we're going

to be very different to if we're sat in

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a business meeting or a coaching session,

you know, there were different versions Of

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ourselves for different situations.

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And there should be the thing that I'm

going to say is I do feel more now,

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whilst there's been an evolution there.

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And there are times when

I see aspects of coaches.

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I think I'd like to be

a bit more like that.

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I'd like to bring that element more into

my coaching and I will move to do that.

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It doesn't always go smoothly, but

you know, I will move to do that.

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If I think it's important for

my development because that

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still becomes part of who I am

and still being true to myself.

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But,

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Angie: what?

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Give me an example.

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Cause I'm curious.

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John: let's say, okay, let's

take an example of, you talked

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about directness earlier on.

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So, I certainly knew early on in

my coaching days that there were

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some coaches who were really good

at the being super direct and and

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what would I say maybe even a little

provocative in their coaching style.

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I really like it.

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But i'm not great at it.

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I could do it I have to have the

right circumstances and I Really

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have to have the permission and

the rapport to be able to do it.

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And I think everyone probably does So

the first time I tried it in a coaching

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session, it didn't go smoothly It was

necessary the code it was necessary in

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the session, but it didn't go smoothly

So When you have someone crying on the

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other end of the line because you've

suddenly become really You know Direct

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with them, you maybe know it's like, all

right, I may have derailed this session.

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Maybe this wasn't the

right approach in this

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Angie: Wait a second.

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And I'm going to counter that because this

is where, I mean, I wasn't there, right?

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So I'm going to trust that you're

evaluating it post session, right?

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And I trust you.

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Okay.

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It's not the goal to get

everybody to cry, right?

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It's not a goal, but obviously unless

you insulted them, which I'm not hearing

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like, Oh, John, you insulted them.

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So of course now they're crying.

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But you probably did a great job, right?

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And brought them to a place

where that needed attention.

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So that's what I'm saying with people.

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It's like you need to be prepared

for the outcome that you expose.

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Whatever it is that you expose, You

need to be prepared to be able to handle

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that, and I'm not saying you did or you

didn't, but that's the point, right, is

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kind of going, I, obviously, I touched

a nerve, and maybe it's relevant,

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maybe it's not right now, but I just

uncovered something with this person.

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Now, how do I get them

from, you know, sobbing

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John: look

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Angie: into,

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John: I'll tell you why I think it

was probably wrong in that situation.

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Now I would ask for permission

to give some authentic feedback

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some direct feedback if that's

okay Are you open to hearing this?

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It's going to be a little uncomfortable.

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I would say that I didn't say this

then That particular feedback in that

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situation came from my own frustration

with the client not from anything else

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kind of where that's kind of

where I knew it wasn't great.

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It hasn't but haven't done that again

since I learned from that mistake,

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but that's why I think yeah, maybe

it wasn't You know, I think maybe

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my frustration came through in that

which is probably what made it worse,

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Angie: well, listen, I want to point that

out to the people that are listening.

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We're not here to be perfect.

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You know, I, you know, anybody who

works with me, I tell them, just get

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that word out of your vocabulary.

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It's an awful word.

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It shouldn't exist because

it doesn't exist, right?

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So the beauty of what

you just said is that.

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You did something.

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Your goal was to do one thing.

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You did something.

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It didn't go the way you wanted.

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And that's how we grow.

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You have to allow yourself as a

coach to part of being authentic is

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not trying too hard to be perfect.

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It's okay to make the mistakes

because what did John just say?

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I never did that again.

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So he learned from what he perceived

as this wasn't good or how I did it or

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what piece of it wasn't a good idea.

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And then took that forward and said,

okay this is what I'm never going to

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do again, because it didn't work the

way I wanted or wasn't my intention.

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So now he's got a new skill

that he brings to his sessions.

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So that's, I think, a really, probably

something we didn't think about,

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but that's why we're here, right?

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We're talking all these things

out, but you know, to allow

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that imperfection to happen.

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It's part of being authentic.

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John: I do

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feel I know this came up before I do

feel that we can sometimes perhaps

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even have an image in our head of what

an ideal coach should be like or what

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they should sound like how they should

be showing up for each session and the

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reality is there isn't one there isn't

a perfect like you say there isn't and

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there isn't an ideal there is just For

you as for you listening as a coach or

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if you're watching us on YouTube, hi but

if you are a coach, this is about you

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being who you need to be when you show

up there, not you being what you think

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a good coach should be like, what you

think you should be like as a good coach.

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And I think there is a distinction there.

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You have your own natural strengths,

you have your own natural abilities,

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you have your own, you have things that

you're naturally not good at, and you

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have to evaluate whether you need to

get good at them, or whether you need

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to leave those things for other people,

and say, okay, that's something I'm

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not good at, let's step away from it.

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It is about it's kind of is about knowing

yourself and working with your strengths

303

: 00:17:45

as much as you can and shoring up The

weaker areas that you do need in your

304

: 00:17:49

practice as well But that thing of being

authentic yourself is if you are Let's say

305

: 00:17:55

you're naturally good at helping people

around their relationships And you're

306

: 00:18:01

trying to wedge yourself into corporate

coaching because you think it's going to

307

: 00:18:05

be better paid That's not really being

authentic or true to yourself and I think

308

: 00:18:10

you're gonna you're going to you might

be able to do it But you're not going

309

: 00:18:13

to feel the level of fulfillment or even

truth to yourself Knowing that you're

310

: 00:18:18

not doing what you're actually naturally

really good at and would probably enjoy

311

: 00:18:21

far more you can pick whatever path you

want, but that's not the authentic path if

312

: 00:18:28

you know that Naturally, i'm good at this.

313

: 00:18:31

I enjoy doing it.

314

: 00:18:31

I feel fulfilled for the work, but i'm

going to push myself here because money

315

: 00:18:37

Angie: listen, I think what, you know,

what the carrot that is dangling in

316

: 00:18:41

front of us I think is a big piece of it.

317

: 00:18:43

I have heard many coaches

and speakers too, right?

318

: 00:18:47

That have said.

319

: 00:18:48

I'm going to do this because I

literally, because that's where

320

: 00:18:52

the money is and that's okay.

321

: 00:18:55

It's great to want to get paid for

your skills and for who you want to be.

322

: 00:18:59

I would say to you that when I be,

I think that I've led a pretty.

323

: 00:19:06

honest path, right?

324

: 00:19:08

But I've grown and learned things.

325

: 00:19:10

So when I started out as a co

trainer, manager, trainer, coach,

326

: 00:19:15

mentor in the sales space, I had

no idea that for today, anybody who

327

: 00:19:22

knows what I do as a coach, Right.

328

: 00:19:24

I do leadership and all the things done

it for years, but now I have a little

329

: 00:19:29

bit of a passion piece because why?

330

: 00:19:32

Because I see women burning out.

331

: 00:19:34

So there's a passion piece to my business.

332

: 00:19:36

There's some piece of that.

333

: 00:19:38

And I'm really in love with going into

that space and helping women navigate

334

: 00:19:44

through all the things, all the balls

that they have to throw in the air

335

: 00:19:47

while they're, you know, delivering

babies and cooking all at the same time.

336

: 00:19:52

Okay.

337

: 00:19:53

But those things happen

naturally and organically.

338

: 00:19:57

If somebody asked me to go and facilitate

anything on and I've had this happen,

339

: 00:20:02

and that's why I'm able to say it.

340

: 00:20:04

Can you facilitate a conference,

a meeting in this tech space,

341

: 00:20:08

like they were going to provide?

342

: 00:20:09

I was like, absolutely not.

343

: 00:20:11

No way.

344

: 00:20:13

Anything pretty much like human related.

345

: 00:20:16

I'm good.

346

: 00:20:16

Right.

347

: 00:20:17

But don't start talking to me

about, you want me to, I can

348

: 00:20:20

deliver what's on a screen.

349

: 00:20:22

Right.

350

: 00:20:22

I can deliver.

351

: 00:20:24

a process.

352

: 00:20:25

But if somebody asks me a question,

we're dead in the water, right?

353

: 00:20:30

Because, you know, I don't know your

software or I don't know, you know, what

354

: 00:20:33

it is that you're really discussing.

355

: 00:20:35

So no, I don't facilitate

things like that.

356

: 00:20:39

And I don't coach, but that doesn't

mean But I can't coach people

357

: 00:20:42

that work in that space, right?

358

: 00:20:44

Because I'm not coaching them on that.

359

: 00:20:46

I'm coaching them on the human element.

360

: 00:20:48

So, you know, I think there's a lot of

truth to what you're saying, finding

361

: 00:20:54

the niche, you know, you and I've

been doing, you know, I've been in

362

: 00:20:58

development, personal and professional

development for ever, you know, 55 now.

363

: 00:21:03

So you know, probably since

I'm 20 with a couple of little

364

: 00:21:07

gaps in between, but not long.

365

: 00:21:09

And even when I had a JOB, as I say.

366

: 00:21:13

I was still doing that.

367

: 00:21:14

I was still developing people, right?

368

: 00:21:17

So it all kind of fits into the bag,

but doing something without any real

369

: 00:21:26

passion or interest in it, is going

to be a disadvantage and it's going

370

: 00:21:31

to affect how you coach for sure

371

: 00:21:34

John: Yeah

372

: 00:21:35

Angie: you're not authentic.

373

: 00:21:37

John: yeah, and I was talking about

this in a recent newsletter that I

374

: 00:21:41

put out and Same kind of thing that

has come up a number of times for me.

375

: 00:21:45

We've had those clients who want to

You just want to focus on where they

376

: 00:21:49

can make the most money and not think

about what's I think it's them but one

377

: 00:21:53

of the things that I was pointing out

there is that this is in relation more

378

: 00:21:56

to professional speaking, but if You

know, if you're something or where's

379

: 00:21:59

the money right now right now, AI is a

really popular topic and you're going

380

: 00:22:03

to go out there and speak about AI if

you're not interested in that, if that's

381

: 00:22:08

not your area, you're going to struggle.

382

: 00:22:10

You're going to probably not going

to have much credibility and.

383

: 00:22:14

When you get to a hundred and seventeen

times of delivering the talk the

384

: 00:22:18

same keynote that you're going to

be delivering or workshop on that.

385

: 00:22:23

How are you going to

be feeling about that?

386

: 00:22:25

You're going to be probably pretty

fed up with it and Same for kind

387

: 00:22:30

of anything that you do if you're

not following a path of genuine

388

: 00:22:33

authenticity, interest, passion for you.

389

: 00:22:35

You're making life

harder for yourself more

390

: 00:22:37

than anything else.

391

: 00:22:38

You might think there's more

money there, but you know what?

392

: 00:22:40

Let's say you actually wanted

to be that relationship coach.

393

: 00:22:43

You can still make a shit ton of

money as a relationship coach.

394

: 00:22:47

You can just look at esther peril She's

doing if I pronounce it incredibly, but

395

: 00:22:50

she's doing incredibly well with that area

And I think that brings me to something

396

: 00:22:55

else that's really important around

authenticity because how you show up In

397

: 00:23:01

your like on social media or wherever else

398

: 00:23:04

you're showing up Is

part of your marketing?

399

: 00:23:08

So

400

: 00:23:09

Angie: Yeah,

401

: 00:23:11

John: you can either be slapdash about

that and just oh you know, just just

402

: 00:23:15

gonna show up However, this is me or you

get intentional about it and you curate

403

: 00:23:22

Which doesn't sound very authentic, but

you curate the version of you that shows

404

: 00:23:26

up in those Like you have an image that

you particularly are going for That is

405

: 00:23:31

still part of you, but it's a curated

part of you it's like this is what i'm

406

: 00:23:36

looking to project and Have you see and

that's part of your marketing when it

407

: 00:23:40

has to be an I've had people rail against

this idea this concept, you know, if

408

: 00:23:44

you've ever come across Robert Green's

books which are all about influence and

409

: 00:23:50

it has a book on seduction which you

know, they're probably everyone should

410

: 00:23:53

check that one out, but But he has

some great books on what makes people

411

: 00:23:56

influential or influential situations.

412

: 00:23:58

He talks about this particular aspect

about Having these curated versions of

413

: 00:24:03

ourselves for public profiles If you

think about pretty much every book big

414

: 00:24:09

name, like if we think about if we were

to think about gosh I'm gonna think

415

: 00:24:13

about names that everyone would know

Gandhi, Mother Teresa JFK, Martin Luther

416

: 00:24:19

King, you know big globally known names

417

: 00:24:23

Whatever we think or know of them

is Undoubtedly nothing like what

418

: 00:24:28

they were really like as people

419

: 00:24:30

We have curated versions of them

that get put out to the world And

420

: 00:24:35

that's our image of them usually

421

: 00:24:38

Angie: going to say

this because I do agree.

422

: 00:24:40

I don't disagree really at all.

423

: 00:24:42

And I think that a way for

people to understand this, like

424

: 00:24:47

I am, you know, me personally,

425

: 00:24:51

John: Yeah,

426

: 00:24:51

Angie: but you don't really, you've never

seen me in a coaching session, although

427

: 00:24:57

we coach each other all the time, right?

428

: 00:24:58

Every time we talk, it's

like what about this?

429

: 00:25:01

But you've never really

seen me in a session.

430

: 00:25:05

But I think you would probably

be okay saying, I'm pretty sure

431

: 00:25:12

Angie is who Angie is, right?

432

: 00:25:15

She is the same person when

she's delivering a coaching

433

: 00:25:20

session or speaking engagement.

434

: 00:25:22

But the difference is there are pieces

that are more polished, that are more

435

: 00:25:26

intentional, that are more practiced.

436

: 00:25:29

So I'm still me.

437

: 00:25:31

Right.

438

: 00:25:32

I don't all of a sudden become

like the stuffed shirt and

439

: 00:25:35

so tell me about your nap.

440

: 00:25:37

Okay.

441

: 00:25:38

That's not it.

442

: 00:25:39

The thing I think that

is most authentic.

443

: 00:25:43

So talking about like the curated

side is versus the everyday, right.

444

: 00:25:48

Is that my energy is the same, the

energy I am as Angie, the full Angie

445

: 00:25:56

experience, Part of that, or most of that.

446

: 00:25:59

is my energy, how I show up.

447

: 00:26:02

I'm consistent.

448

: 00:26:03

And the reason why I'm able to be

consistent is because even though there

449

: 00:26:08

are pieces that are polished and practiced

and honed, I still deliver it as me.

450

: 00:26:13

I don't try to be John.

451

: 00:26:15

I don't try to be, you know, other people.

452

: 00:26:18

I just am me end of story.

453

: 00:26:22

And I think it's almost how people

assign, like people think they

454

: 00:26:26

know actors and actresses, right?

455

: 00:26:28

They think they know them because

they've seen them in a part where

456

: 00:26:32

they play the part so well that

you think, you know, them like

457

: 00:26:36

that must be who they really are.

458

: 00:26:38

And then you read about them like so

and so was an asshole or so and so was

459

: 00:26:42

really nice, nothing like her bitchy

character, like whatever, right?

460

: 00:26:46

We are still all human first, but

I would say that energetically,

461

: 00:26:52

You know, I don't put on a show.

462

: 00:26:54

I am who I am, and that is why I think

I'm able to do what I do to the level

463

: 00:27:00

that I do it, because I am consistent.

464

: 00:27:03

And that is the piece is that energy.

465

: 00:27:06

So that's just my

466

: 00:27:08

John: Yeah.

467

: 00:27:08

Angie: it.

468

: 00:27:09

John: No, I think you should trademark

469

: 00:27:11

Angie: You're hilarious.

470

: 00:27:12

John: And

471

: 00:27:14

I

472

: 00:27:17

agree if you think about maybe we've

talked a little bit about this before

473

: 00:27:21

but probably pretty much the majority

of people who you might have heard of

474

: 00:27:26

in personal and professional development

circles are And not necessarily the

475

: 00:27:32

same person off stage as on stage.

476

: 00:27:35

And I've certainly come across a

number of them who are very different

477

: 00:27:37

characters off stage on stage.

478

: 00:27:38

Like real performance when

they're on stage as to off.

479

: 00:27:42

But I have certainly come across those who

are pretty much the same on and off stage.

480

: 00:27:47

Now they might turn up the

dials when they're on stage

481

: 00:27:50

and, they turn up their energy.

482

: 00:27:51

But in terms of who they are

and who they're showing up as,

483

: 00:27:54

they're pretty true to that.

484

: 00:27:55

They walk their.

485

: 00:27:56

They walk their talk.

486

: 00:27:58

And there's a lot of people around who

don't, and it's one of the reasons why

487

: 00:28:01

I tend now, which I wasn't in my early

days, tend not to be quite skeptical.

488

: 00:28:05

It's you know, they might look good.

489

: 00:28:06

They might sound good.

490

: 00:28:06

There might be a great performer, but

I don't know yet early on if they're

491

: 00:28:10

actually walking the talk and it matters

to me that level of authenticity.

492

: 00:28:15

It would kind of be like being being

the preacher in a mega church and then

493

: 00:28:19

going home and doing all the stuff

that is exactly the opposite of what

494

: 00:28:23

you're teaching other people to do

495

: 00:28:25

Angie: Listen, I'm going to be fair here.

496

: 00:28:27

I mean, I used to go, I'm going

to say this for the record.

497

: 00:28:29

I probably went through a lot of, I

would call it maybe imposter syndrome.

498

: 00:28:34

Maybe when, like, how can I do?

499

: 00:28:38

Cause I do relationship coaching.

500

: 00:28:40

Hi, I've been divorced.

501

: 00:28:41

And initially in my head,

the logic didn't make sense.

502

: 00:28:45

How can you possibly be a relationship

coach if you've been divorced?

503

: 00:28:48

And I'm like How about because

I've seen both sides of it

504

: 00:28:51

and that's part of it, right?

505

: 00:28:52

I still do some things that are very

specific to learn information, but I have

506

: 00:28:58

an, I have a perspective that doesn't

make me better than somebody else.

507

: 00:29:02

Because, again, I've coached people

that are work, that worked for NASA.

508

: 00:29:07

I know nothing about their

world professionally, but I know

509

: 00:29:11

about them as a human and that's

what I, that's what I focus on.

510

: 00:29:15

But I think that you have to allow that

to fade away because we are imperfect.

511

: 00:29:21

And I I've had clients that have been

like, I'm going to be in Arizona.

512

: 00:29:26

I want to meet you.

513

: 00:29:27

And I was hesitant.

514

: 00:29:28

Because I don't even want them to

see how I drink a cup of coffee

515

: 00:29:32

because there's an Angie image, right?

516

: 00:29:35

There's an image that they have of me and

517

: 00:29:40

John: and that's going to change

518

: 00:29:41

Angie: and it's going to

change when I am humanized.

519

: 00:29:45

You know, it's what we

do with ivory mount.

520

: 00:29:46

I wait, here's one.

521

: 00:29:48

I will never forget this.

522

: 00:29:50

I was in probably fourth or fifth grade.

523

: 00:29:53

And I had the same teacher, I

didn't get left back, but I had

524

: 00:29:57

the same teacher, and this time

when I had her, she was pregnant.

525

: 00:30:01

And I remember thinking it didn't

bother me, but I saw her differently

526

: 00:30:07

because I looked at her as this

authority figure, not as a human, right?

527

: 00:30:12

So now she's I've got the giant belly.

528

: 00:30:15

And I was like, Oh, and

I don't know what it was.

529

: 00:30:18

I can't even tell you what I was feeling

in the moment, but I remember if I

530

: 00:30:22

had to, if I had to call it something

today, it was the fact that she was

531

: 00:30:27

humanized or when I'm seeing my parents

strip up, they're now humanized.

532

: 00:30:33

So I think that there are some

level of disconnect that we

533

: 00:30:38

always want to, or we try to keep

between ourselves and our clients.

534

: 00:30:42

Because, if we overly humanize

ourselves, we might lose some of that

535

: 00:30:49

authoritative edge, the expertise.

536

: 00:30:54

I don't want to know what my surgeon's

bathroom habits are, for example,

537

: 00:30:59

I don't want to know any of that.

538

: 00:31:01

What I just, because then it's, it

kind of, almost to me, takes away

539

: 00:31:06

from the way I need to see him

540

: 00:31:09

John: Yeah, I've never really understood

celebrity gossip and things like that,

541

: 00:31:13

but I get why people are interested

in it but see that as a form of more

542

: 00:31:18

than anything trying to Reach up to

these people and pull them down to

543

: 00:31:22

a level that we can relate to them

544

: 00:31:23

more at because they Their image is at

that higher level And so when people

545

: 00:31:29

really do have a fall from grace as I

think we may actually you end up seeing

546

: 00:31:32

them lower than us And probably they're

not going to come back from that on a

547

: 00:31:36

professional sort of status kind of way

And it does relate so much to status

548

: 00:31:40

here We have a status that we're aiming

for as coaches that we want to establish

549

: 00:31:44

with the class but Realistically,

it has to fit into our integrity

550

: 00:31:49

And you know, I don't know.

551

: 00:31:51

I only know of one coach i've ever

come across that I know for sure Is

552

: 00:31:55

officially diagnosed as a sociopath

553

: 00:31:58

He owns it and he admits to it, but

I think still think he's probably a

554

: 00:32:01

good guy doesn't necessarily mean that

you're an evil person but But I think

555

: 00:32:05

for most people, if you are like

more leaning towards that low empathy,

556

: 00:32:09

it's probably easier for you to act

outside of your integrity and not

557

: 00:32:12

feel wracked with guilt for doing it.

558

: 00:32:14

But for most of us if we act outside of

our integrity, that internal guilt, that

559

: 00:32:20

feeling, the mismatch of who we are, who

would, what we're doing to who we are.

560

: 00:32:25

Starts to change or starts to affect us

or pull us down And we will self sabotage

561

: 00:32:30

to get ourselves to where we feel we need

to be or where we feel we deserve to be

562

: 00:32:34

or what actually fits with our integrity

We won't let ourselves get as far as we

563

: 00:32:38

need to get or if we do we'll have that

fall from grace because we're outside We

564

: 00:32:42

know we're outside of our integrity and

we're heading for a fall at that point

565

: 00:32:46

So The integrity pieces is so important.

566

: 00:32:49

You know, I've spoken before.

567

: 00:32:50

I saw when I knew in personal

development, I'm not going to give too

568

: 00:32:53

much detail because you'd be able to

find out who it was, but had a real

569

: 00:32:56

fall from grace and I saw it unwind.

570

: 00:32:58

I saw him unravel.

571

: 00:33:01

On stage in front of thousands of

people and you know, there were

572

: 00:33:05

there was addiction issues there.

573

: 00:33:07

There was Probably some mental health

issues going on as well And ultimately

574

: 00:33:13

who was being and perhaps showing up

as to an audience was not the same as

575

: 00:33:16

who he was and I think he Knew that

and that mismatch That thing of who he

576

: 00:33:21

was kind of pretending to be Acting as

rather than who he actually was and knew

577

: 00:33:27

he actually was You eventually was the

cause of the downfall in my opinion.

578

: 00:33:32

Angie: I wanna say something about

that because, I think authenticity

579

: 00:33:36

in coaching and you guys hear John

and I talk about speaking 'cause

580

: 00:33:38

we're both public speakers as well.

581

: 00:33:41

So we talk about that.

582

: 00:33:42

There's a big overlap for us.

583

: 00:33:43

But the thing that's changing

and shifting in the industry is.

584

: 00:33:50

It used to be you had to, coaches

very much were, I'm a coach and

585

: 00:33:56

they did almost give off this I'm

not even human kind of like energy,

586

: 00:34:00

back to that, sorry, or whatever.

587

: 00:34:03

But coaches now that are getting

the most traction are the ones who

588

: 00:34:12

are able to say, I screwed this up.

589

: 00:34:17

I've seen Mel Robbins do it.

590

: 00:34:19

I've seen Tony Robbins do it.

591

: 00:34:20

I've seen Brendon Burchard do it.

592

: 00:34:22

I've seen some pretty, whether

you like them or you don't,

593

: 00:34:25

I've seen some big people,

594

: 00:34:27

Brene Brown.

595

: 00:34:28

Marie Forleo, who I love the thing that

they're able, the reason why they're

596

: 00:34:33

able to connect with us and why,

you know, they've catapulted to fame

597

: 00:34:40

is their ability to say I hear you.

598

: 00:34:43

I understand.

599

: 00:34:45

So they've you know, they've shifted

that path for us as coaches where it's,

600

: 00:34:49

Oh, it's more okay for us to be human.

601

: 00:34:53

I had somebody that I

worked under for a while.

602

: 00:34:56

She was a mentor and she had listened

to one of my calls and came back and

603

: 00:35:04

one of my clients had suffered

a death in the family.

604

: 00:35:07

And she was very distraught, and it was,

very soon after, and at the beginning

605

: 00:35:11

of the session, I was like, I'm so

sorry, I'm so sorry to hear this.

606

: 00:35:17

And I said, do you need to

reschedule this session?

607

: 00:35:21

Would that be, cause now, two things

could happen in this scenario.

608

: 00:35:25

I could help push her through it.

609

: 00:35:27

Or

610

: 00:35:30

do what she needs to do.

611

: 00:35:32

And in the session, this client

said, you know what, I'd really

612

: 00:35:36

appreciate it if we leave this today.

613

: 00:35:39

I'll be back next week,

but I need a minute.

614

: 00:35:42

And the person that was listening was

like, why did you let that happen?

615

: 00:35:47

It should have been this

it should have been that.

616

: 00:35:49

And I, and my answer was, because

it didn't feel right, I could have

617

: 00:35:53

said, Hey, but I'm not a therapist.

618

: 00:35:56

So I didn't want to sit and talk about

like, why do you feel sad about that?

619

: 00:35:59

Because somebody that was

important to them just passed away.

620

: 00:36:02

I don't need to bring

them deeper into that.

621

: 00:36:06

And that was a really big defining

moment for me as a coach, where

622

: 00:36:11

I said to myself, I'm never going

to dishonor what somebody needs.

623

: 00:36:15

Now, if somebody keeps avoiding something,

I will be able to pick up on those cues.

624

: 00:36:20

But this was a genuine human

situation where somebody just

625

: 00:36:25

needed to be allowed to go be human

for a minute and not be coached.

626

: 00:36:29

Maybe they'd come back

and I'd say, how were you?

627

: 00:36:31

How did you fare through that?

628

: 00:36:33

What was, if I see after months

that it's still like they're

629

: 00:36:36

in hysterics, then maybe we're

having a different conversation.

630

: 00:36:39

But I think it's really

important to remain human for me.

631

: 00:36:45

And that's probably the biggest

form of authenticity for me.

632

: 00:36:50

John: I think this is, this is challenging

because it's some of the stuff I'm I'm

633

: 00:36:53

saying particularly might be seen as

contradictory, but I don't disagree

634

: 00:36:57

with a single thing you said there.

635

: 00:36:59

I think if we are really being true to

ourselves, even if we're being a curated

636

: 00:37:03

version of that, that we're putting out

to the world, even if there are things

637

: 00:37:06

that could potentially chip away at that.

638

: 00:37:09

at that image.

639

: 00:37:09

Don't be too worried about that.

640

: 00:37:10

Just keep holding on.

641

: 00:37:12

It has to still be authentic to you.

642

: 00:37:14

It still has to be part of who you are,

because if it's not, the weight of acting

643

: 00:37:19

that role is going to become probably

too much, but also it's going to damage

644

: 00:37:24

your ability to connect with people,

damage your ability to react and respond

645

: 00:37:28

the way you instinctively would, the

way that your coaching instincts, if

646

: 00:37:32

you like, that you talking about there

with telling you to operate that you end

647

: 00:37:37

up maybe doing something else instead.

648

: 00:37:39

Angie: listen to what John just said.

649

: 00:37:40

I love that coaching instincts.

650

: 00:37:43

When you're a newer coach, maybe you

have some gifts where you are able

651

: 00:37:46

to instinctively connect with people,

build rapport quickly, things like that.

652

: 00:37:51

But again, there's, it's still a

skill that can be honed and developed.

653

: 00:37:56

And I think it's important to keep

that in mind when you are, I want,

654

: 00:38:03

I'm air quoting this deciding who you

want to be and show up as a coach.

655

: 00:38:08

It is a decision.

656

: 00:38:10

I could certainly try and do, I could

try and be, I could try and be a much

657

: 00:38:17

more softer version and say, so John,

You know what, for now, I would, you know

658

: 00:38:22

what, doing that for five sessions a day

would probably feel like I was on the

659

: 00:38:27

treadmill at the highest speed, at the,

you know, that would be draining for me,

660

: 00:38:33

because it's not authentically who I am,

661

: 00:38:36

John: Here's the thing as well.

662

: 00:38:37

I think Authenticity being authentically

you In the way that we're talking

663

: 00:38:45

about here Is going to cause a problem

that some people struggle to deal

664

: 00:38:49

with in that When you're showing up

as an authentic version of yourself

665

: 00:38:54

Some people are not going to like you

666

: 00:38:57

Angie: yeah?

667

: 00:38:58

John: That's it.

668

: 00:38:59

But some people are going to love you.

669

: 00:39:02

But some people are going

to be indifferent to you.

670

: 00:39:05

But that's what we want.

671

: 00:39:07

Because otherwise, if we're trying to be

the people pleaser, or the person that

672

: 00:39:11

everybody likes, we end up being bland.

673

: 00:39:15

I hate that word.

674

: 00:39:17

Bland.

675

: 00:39:18

It's worse than moist.

676

: 00:39:19

It's bland.

677

: 00:39:20

It's just a horrible word.

678

: 00:39:21

Angie: A benign,

679

: 00:39:23

John: Benign beige

680

: 00:39:26

It's funny

681

: 00:39:26

These words all sound kind of similar

you end up being kind of fake you end

682

: 00:39:31

up being disconnected And these are not

good things and So if you're trying to

683

: 00:39:38

keep everybody happy, you'll keep nobody

happy and ultimately people will

684

: 00:39:43

probably dislike you more because you

don't have that sense of authenticity

685

: 00:39:48

you'll just see someone who will bend with

the breeze and be whoever you think you're

686

: 00:39:53

supposed to be to show up in the situation

687

: 00:39:55

Angie: yeah.

688

: 00:39:56

Listen, I can smell it a mile away.

689

: 00:39:58

You and I have talked about, I think

we, you know, should coach, have a

690

: 00:40:01

coach and I totally believe in it.

691

: 00:40:04

And there are people that I try,

I tried to work with them, but

692

: 00:40:07

they try, they were, I could,

they weren't connecting with me.

693

: 00:40:11

They were maybe following some kind

of a framework, not so specific,

694

: 00:40:15

but even if it was their own Oh I'm

going to do this in this session.

695

: 00:40:19

And I, and they would do it

in such a way that I was like,

696

: 00:40:22

get me out of this session.

697

: 00:40:23

Give me my money back.

698

: 00:40:24

This is never going to take me.

699

: 00:40:27

Where I need to go,

it's not going to work.

700

: 00:40:30

So that's something that I've always

remained cognizant of is, am I able

701

: 00:40:34

to connect and I think that I am.

702

: 00:40:41

Because there's that authenticity piece,

where people just know that I'm being very

703

: 00:40:46

real and very human and not practiced.

704

: 00:40:51

Even though it's years of practice.

705

: 00:40:54

Decades of practice, actually.

706

: 00:40:57

John: I want to share something with you.

707

: 00:40:58

This is really embarrassing to share

But you know, i'm not afraid of

708

: 00:41:00

sharing embarrassing things with you

709

: 00:41:04

Angie: Can't

710

: 00:41:04

John: Just me and you

Angie, no one else is

711

: 00:41:06

listening.

712

: 00:41:06

Uh,

713

: 00:41:11

Angie: listening.

714

: 00:41:11

John: I may have told you this before

as well, but when I was very first

715

: 00:41:15

getting into starting my own business

I was putting content out on YouTube.

716

: 00:41:21

And this is early days of YouTube.

717

: 00:41:23

This is not many people were,

not many people had channels, not

718

: 00:41:26

many people were posting stuff up.

719

: 00:41:27

So if you put videos up,

people would see them.

720

: 00:41:31

Like these days you could put, you could

be pissing in the wind on YouTube and

721

: 00:41:34

post stuff up and no one will watch it.

722

: 00:41:35

You know, very easy to do that now.

723

: 00:41:39

Early days of youtube not so much.

724

: 00:41:41

So I put up some videos and One of the

videos was kind of a sales video, I

725

: 00:41:45

guess I was promoting Me and my coaching

services and I wasn't hadn't really found

726

: 00:41:52

myself as a coach at that point I know

it was early It was kind of early days of

727

: 00:41:56

being a full time coach and still figuring

a lot of things out So I was being a bit

728

: 00:42:00

more of a presenter, a bit more of a sales

person, what I thought that should be.

729

: 00:42:06

And and I just remember this one

comment I got on this video about

730

: 00:42:10

how fake I was and all this stuff.

731

: 00:42:13

And it destroyed me.

732

: 00:42:16

Absolutely destroyed me.

733

: 00:42:17

I think it must've been several years

before I YouTube again, after that.

734

: 00:42:23

But it destroyed me because it

was, because I knew it was right.

735

: 00:42:25

I knew it was true.

736

: 00:42:27

And

737

: 00:42:28

Angie: Know what I'm going

to be doing after today?

738

: 00:42:29

I'm going to be like, John YouTube.

739

: 00:42:31

John: is that video still up there?

740

: 00:42:32

I think I took it down.

741

: 00:42:36

I think I took I think I pretty much

took everything down and closed down

742

: 00:42:39

my youtube account at that time.

743

: 00:42:40

Yeah.

744

: 00:42:41

Yeah, I were

745

: 00:42:43

I was devastated.

746

: 00:42:45

I was devastated.

747

: 00:42:46

Angie: so yeah, so what was

the lesson in it though?

748

: 00:42:49

So what was the outcome like, really,

besides running and hiding a little

749

: 00:42:52

bit get me out of here, I don't want

anybody to see me, which is common.

750

: 00:42:57

John: Do you know what I mean?

751

: 00:42:58

Say like any kind of feedback even

Like it was obviously intended to be

752

: 00:43:02

negative criticism and possibly even

intended to be hurtful I don't know

753

: 00:43:07

but it was valid because I felt it

and so there was something there But

754

: 00:43:13

I where I took that probably wasn't

the best at the time like I would be

755

: 00:43:16

different now I would accept you know

accept the criticism that comes through

756

: 00:43:20

still but I wouldn't go and hide away.

757

: 00:43:22

I wouldn't decide I needed to delete

my account or anything like that I just

758

: 00:43:26

go I would just correct course and keep

going so, you know I maybe were took

759

: 00:43:30

it took a little while to build up.

760

: 00:43:31

A bit more of a sort of We call

it a bit more of a hide a rough

761

: 00:43:34

hide to be able to weather

762

: 00:43:36

Angie: Rhino skin.

763

: 00:43:37

That's what I call it.

764

: 00:43:38

Rhino skin.

765

: 00:43:39

Rhino is toughest skin in

the, of all the mammals.

766

: 00:43:42

John: Yeah becoming a bit

more bulletproof for sure.

767

: 00:43:45

Angie: Listen, I think there's, that's a

whole, probably a different topic for us.

768

: 00:43:51

You do have to be able to allow

criticism in and then you also have

769

: 00:43:58

to be able to simultaneously be able

to just turn off the noise that comes

770

: 00:44:02

in, for the trolls and the haters

because that's going to happen.

771

: 00:44:05

And as long as you know you did

what you intended to do, again,

772

: 00:44:10

it may fall into one of those

categories of I'm not for everybody.

773

: 00:44:13

I know who like the, my client is

generally attracted to me now, right?

774

: 00:44:20

They're attracted to.

775

: 00:44:22

The strength, the directedness,

the compassion, I think I always

776

: 00:44:27

project myself when we talk here,

like I'm some witch and I'm not,

777

: 00:44:31

I'm just, I'm direct and I'm

778

: 00:44:33

John: You say that.

779

: 00:44:34

Angie: I see that face.

780

: 00:44:36

I will come to Spain and I will get you.

781

: 00:44:38

But you know, I feel like I, I do

have to, and there are people when

782

: 00:44:42

they say to me, you know what I'm

thinking, Angie, that maybe this

783

: 00:44:45

isn't going to be the greatest fit.

784

: 00:44:47

I probably already knew that before.

785

: 00:44:50

I probably already, I have a discovery

call and somebody says, you were great,

786

: 00:44:54

but I think I need maybe more of this.

787

: 00:44:57

I usually know it.

788

: 00:44:58

I usually know it in advance of that.

789

: 00:45:00

And honestly, I might maybe

need to be the one that says,

790

: 00:45:05

I don't know if we're a fit.

791

: 00:45:06

I don't know if I can coach you, but

I don't know if I'm a fit for you.

792

: 00:45:09

So yeah, I think it's important

to look at all the things and

793

: 00:45:13

be fair to ourselves, right?

794

: 00:45:16

We can't listen to everything that's

negative because, if that were the

795

: 00:45:19

case, John and I individually would have

closed down shop years and years ago.

796

: 00:45:25

Right.

797

: 00:45:25

I mean, the truth,

798

: 00:45:27

John: Yeah.

799

: 00:45:28

Yeah.

800

: 00:45:28

Be calling back under my rock.

801

: 00:45:30

Yeah,

802

: 00:45:31

Angie: you know, what's funny, I just want

to, cause I know we're going long today.

803

: 00:45:34

I just wanted to share this.

804

: 00:45:35

This is interesting.

805

: 00:45:37

The people in my personal life that know

me, they really don't know me as a coach.

806

: 00:45:45

They have no idea who I am because

they're not in coaching sessions.

807

: 00:45:50

And it's so funny because I used to

have this fear of, you know, once

808

: 00:45:55

it became more obvious that In order

to gain clients anymore, right?

809

: 00:45:58

You need to be out there, right?

810

: 00:46:00

You need to be front and center, social

media, among other things, right?

811

: 00:46:04

That's not the only thing,

but what does that do?

812

: 00:46:06

Right.

813

: 00:46:06

It exposes you to the

people that know you.

814

: 00:46:10

And I've had some people come back

and say, Oh, I didn't know that you

815

: 00:46:17

knew about that, or you did that.

816

: 00:46:19

And I'm like, You know,

I'm a coach, right?

817

: 00:46:22

Yeah, but I thought you just sat there

and told people what to do all day.

818

: 00:46:25

Okay.

819

: 00:46:25

Don't I wish.

820

: 00:46:26

That's not it.

821

: 00:46:27

But it's interesting because I would

say to you that I am, my, my fears from

822

: 00:46:35

getting out in front of people were more

based on the people that knew me getting

823

: 00:46:40

to see me than it is about any stranger.

824

: 00:46:43

Cause you don't know me yet.

825

: 00:46:46

And I think I've seen a lot of

coaches pull away from that.

826

: 00:46:50

Because they're afraid to be

authentically themselves as coaches,

827

: 00:46:54

because it doesn't maybe

necessarily perfectly align with

828

: 00:47:00

who they are personally, right?

829

: 00:47:02

Professionally and personally.

830

: 00:47:03

So just a little interesting tidbit there.

831

: 00:47:06

John: it is.

832

: 00:47:07

You mentioned, you mentioned a little

earlier about coaches having coaches

833

: 00:47:11

Angie: Thank you.

834

: 00:47:12

Bye.

835

: 00:47:12

John: came up a few times

in the conversation.

836

: 00:47:14

I think it would be a good topic for us

837

: 00:47:16

maybe to look at

838

: 00:47:17

in our next episode here.

839

: 00:47:19

Angie: Sounds good to me.

840

: 00:47:21

John: All right we'll do that again.

841

: 00:47:22

We hope you'll come back

and join us for that.

842

: 00:47:24

And we certainly look forward to that.

843

: 00:47:26

Remember, you can still

leave us a voice message.

844

: 00:47:29

It's completely free.

845

: 00:47:30

You can go online to speakpipe.

846

: 00:47:33

com forward slash the coaching clinic

podcast, and you can record your voice

847

: 00:47:38

message and we'll feed back to you.

848

: 00:47:40

Feature it on the show.

849

: 00:47:41

Good or bad.

850

: 00:47:42

We'll put it out there.

851

: 00:47:43

We're not afraid we'll be authentic.

852

: 00:47:45

You can be authentic with your messages

as well, but we'll come back next time.

853

: 00:47:48

We'll talk about coaches, having coaches.

854

: 00:47:51

Angie: Yeah, that's a big one.

855

: 00:47:53

Love it.

856

: 00:47:54

John: All right.

857

: 00:47:54

We'll see you then.

858

: 00:47:56

Angie: Bye for now.