When to Fire a Coaching Client: Navigating Tough Conversations in Coaching

Angie: 00:00:00

John,

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John: Angie.

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Angie: you're fired.

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John: What?

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Angie: You're fired.

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Oh,

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John: can't fire me, I quit.

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What is this?

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What's this about, Donald?

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Is this?

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Angie: that's funny.

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Let me ask you, have you ever had

to terminate a coaching client?

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John: Yeah, sure.

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Angie: So how did you handle it?

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John: Carefully.

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But it sounds like a great

topic for this episode.

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So let's get started.

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Angie: All right, sounds good to me.

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Yeah, it's a tough one.

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John: It is, gosh, sacking your

clients it's sensitive, especially

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for someone like me, who really does

not like confrontational situations,

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that, that feels very confrontational.

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Angie: John is the T Rex from Toy Story.

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I told like confrontation.

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John: I don't think, I don't know,

do people like, I guess there must

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be people who actually do enjoy

confrontation, who maybe get a thrill

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from it, but I'm not one of them.

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But I probably do what most people do

in that situation of catastrophizing

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it a little bit and thinking it's

going to be way worse than it actually

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So that, I think that's always

the worry with these things.

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We always, nearly always, imagine

these things to go far worse

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because we're having to have

a difficult conversation with

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Angie: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I think that what you said though is

important like the first thing you

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said when I say How did you handle?

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How do you handle it?

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Your first answer is carefully.

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And you do want to handle it carefully

because A, You have a responsibility as

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a coach to be the professional, I think.

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But also, you don't want people

running around and like defaming

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you in any way Oh, she was such

a, this, and he was such a, that

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John: I've had that story.

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Angie: I do.

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Yeah.

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So, tell us about that.

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Tell us a little bit

about that crazy story.

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We don't have to get all

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John: for sure.

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I didn't actually fire that client.

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That was Just an awkward situation,

but it did come from having to have

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a difficult conversation because

the client wasn't showing up,

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the client wasn't taking action.

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And I was very frustrated working

with this person of like week after

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week, showing up for the calls

at least, but not doing anything.

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I felt like we were wasting our time

that she was wasting her time and

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money and I probably could have put

it a little more tactfully than I did,

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but she didn't take it Well, let's

just say that but I discovered I think

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probably weeks afterwards that she

under a pseudonym had gone onto various

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Facebook groups that were connected to

the organization that I was working with

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and posted all sorts of crap about me

particularly and about the company and

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anyone she knew who was involved in it

and was really slating the company and

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me personally, left, right and center.

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And it's, this got back to the company.

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who then informed me and said,

do you know who this person is?

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Do you recognize this name?

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And I said, no, but there's

something familiar about this.

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And when I went and dug a little deeper

into the social media profiles oh, I

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know who this is and realized it was

that client under a different name.

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And so it did eventually get sorted

out, all the nasty posts got taken down.

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I didn't feel like the company

handled that incredibly well, if

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I'm being honest about it, because

they assigned her to another coach.

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She should have been fired as a

client for doing that kind of thing.

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She should have just

been fired as a client.

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But they they instead tried

to save her as a client.

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Angie: I think that's a good point.

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So here's the thing.

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Let's differentiate things.

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If you're working, if you

have your own business, right,

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you do what you want to do.

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And we'll talk about some

best practices there.

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If you're working for a coaching company.

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Obviously you have a job there and

there's, you have to handle things

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maybe differently than you normally

would have because of course they're

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just looking to, let's just smooth

it over and retain that client.

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We don't want the bad press.

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We want to keep

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John: don't want a refund.

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They don't want a refund either.

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So yeah, there's

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Angie: No, exactly.

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Exactly.

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The next, who wants to refund?

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Nobody wants to refund.

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But so I think there's a different

set of guidelines there that you

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don't really have control over.

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To be honest, right?

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The company does.

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But if you're a coach that's starting

out or you're a coach that's been

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around for a minute, you must have, if

you've been around, had that moment.

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So let's talk about what kind of

scenarios, like what why would we want

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to terminate a contract with a client?

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What are some of the reasons?

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So you already mentioned that, they're

showing up, but they're not showing up.

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They're not doing any of the work.

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For sure, that requires

a difficult conversation.

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I love those conversations though,

and it's not always with the

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intention of termination, right?

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John: Right.

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Angie: Hey, you know what?

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Can we take 10 minutes today?

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Cause I want to talk to you.

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Oh, sure.

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Angie.

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What's going on?

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I just want to know are you

still serious about these two?

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We first started working together.

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You mentioned these goals, do you

feel like you're actively working?

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So it really becomes a coaching moment

because sometimes people don't really

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know that they're not showing up.

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So you really do have to be a check in.

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You cannot be aggressive and just go,

I'm going to show them no, because

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then you'll have zero clients for sure.

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John: Let me just be clear that the

situation I had, we had several of

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those kinds of coaching moments where

we were trying to really get to the

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bottom of what was actually going on.

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And ultimately, It became like

banging my head against a brick wall.

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I think that became personally, I think

where it personally affected me was

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feeling that I didn't at that time have

The I think I felt like I was lacking

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some level of coaching knowledge in how

to deal with this or how to get a result

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How do I get a result with somebody

like this who really is resistant to

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taking any kind of action whatsoever?

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But and I think that's where it pushed

me to, I think the only way we're going

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to get anywhere is if I get really

lay down the law and say, this is it.

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Either do this stuff or

don't bother coming back.

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So we'd had, it had

been a build up to this.

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It wasn't just like one session.

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I'm like, all right, we're done.

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You're out.

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Yeah.

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So you see, those, but I think

generally those situations are

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exceptional that you would find

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That someone would even pay for

coaching and coming to it and

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really not even try to take action.

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And again, when you are working for

yourself, hopefully you're going

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to have had some kind of onboarding

and introduction and discovery with

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the person to know whether they are

the kind of person who takes action

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or whether the kind of person who's

going to be the Difficult to work

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with at which point, we've talked

about that before in discovery calls.

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You can stop it before it gets that far.

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Angie: It's so funny that you mentioned

that because very early on in our

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journey here at the coaching clinic,

I remember talking about one of the,

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one of the clients that I've had where,

I mean, he was absolutely impossible.

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Impossible.

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And I did not terminate him.

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But I have to be honest when we

had our discovery call and our

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clarity session, he was honest.

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He was like, I just can't

seem to get out of my own way.

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And so I think as a coach, we all

kind of approach things with like

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with nothing but positivity okay,

that's definitely a pain point.

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We need to work into that.

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And we should do that.

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I will tell you with certainty

that it was so frustrating

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for me that I met that time.

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I did work.

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For myself and for another company

and I went to the director and said,

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listen to a couple of these calls.

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Cause I don't know what else to do.

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I didn't know what else to do.

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And she came back and she, I think she

had listened to 3 of our sessions and

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she was like, we need to get rid of him.

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He's never going to do this.

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And I was like, okay.

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And I was thinking you're

going to get rid of him.

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No, I had to.

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So it was really, it was like

uncomfortable and he dug his heels in

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and I was, very diplomatic as tough as,

we make me out to be here on the show.

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I was very diplomat, don't laugh.

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I was very diplomatic and I was honest

and said, I know you're struggling

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and I'm struggling to help you.

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I was very honest and transparent

because, we have broken things

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down into the smallest of pieces

and still that becomes huge.

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And he was like, no, I need to keep

doing this, even if it's not working.

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And I was like, okay, far be it

for me to tell, but I also had

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said then what's the direction.

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So I'm not going to get into all

of that, but it really isn't just

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about it's so frustrating for me

because I know everybody out there

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that has coached has had frustrating

clients or frustrating sessions.

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We have to manage ourselves on that.

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We have a responsibility to that.

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So when is it appropriate?

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And I really think it's an

individual decision, right?

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Because when I'm ready to terminate,

I might say, for example, prefer

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somebody and say, you know what?

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I think I might not be the right fit for

you, but I can refer you to somebody else.

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Are you interested?

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And I might refer that person to

John and John might knock it out

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of the park with them because

sometimes it's just truly not a fit.

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John: would you refer someone who

was that challenging to work with?

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Because I

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Angie: I might.

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Yeah.

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John: I might, but I would probably

check in with the person I was

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referring them to first and say,

Hey, look, I've got this person.

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Do you feel up to that?

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Do you feel up to that?

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Angie: This really smells.

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Smell it.

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No, of course I would do the check in.

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I wouldn't just be like giving

out phone numbers and stuff.

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I would have a consult with the

coach or whomever I was working with.

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Referring to and say, listen,

I haven't had any luck.

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This is what I've tried.

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These are the challenges.

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Do you want to or not?

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And I would probably do that before I

mentioned referring to the client just

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in case the person said, absolutely not.

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I'm not interested.

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Right.

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Cause now I then have to go back

and say to the person, I'm sorry,

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they don't want you either.

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I'm sorry.

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I'm giggling today.

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My coffee has no bourbon in it.

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I swear,

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John: Let me ask you.

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Let me ask you something then.

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When it comes to potentially firing

clients what would be the main

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thing you'd probably fire them for?

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Angie: disrespect.

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I think the one thing I can't

work through with a client is

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if they're disrespectful to me.

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Right.

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Meaning are they cursing?

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Are they cursing at me or are

they just cursing in general?

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Cause I do have some people

that are like, Oh, I'm sorry.

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I said that F bomb.

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Is that okay?

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And I'm like, have at it.

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But if they're cursing me out because

they're having a bad day or they're

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frustrated, that is my, you're done.

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We're done.

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John: Yeah, I'd say that's like the

unforgivable sin in coaching, coachee

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relationship is to disrespect your coach.

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And I would say something that

perhaps comes into that to a lesser

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extent, but is still part of it,

is people just not showing up.

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What we would often just call no shows in

the coaching world, where they book the

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session and they don't show up for it.

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And, or they stop booking the sessions.

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I mean, the.

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The second one, maybe a little different.

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You're going to reach out and say,

Hey, look, you need to put your

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sessions in check in, you're going

to maybe follow up a few times, but.

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Maybe like me, you might have had

those situations in the past where

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you get those people who just go

go incommunicado and they will

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not respond no matter what you do.

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You have to terminate the relationship,

but what choice do you have?

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They have essentially already done that.

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And so I'd say in terms of terminating

or firing your clients, the times where

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that has happened the most has been from

People who I either just aren't showing

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up at all or booking in the sessions

or booking in the sessions and then no

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showing the sessions leaving you sat

there waiting for them a bunch of times,

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which I think is very disrespectful.

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I will just say no.

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So sometimes the.

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Angie: sure a different

form of disrespect.

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But I think my perspective on that

might be a little bit different and

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I don't, I'm not saying that for you.

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It's obviously you're

referring to like habitual.

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Right.

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No shows and not just the one time and

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John: that's what off.

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Angie: correct.

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So to your point, one of the things that

I consider is when they stopped showing

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up, whether it was the no show or lack

of booking, what was happening in our

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sessions, because that will happen.

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What my experience has been is, that'll

happen when We hit a pain point when it

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really we start to do the work Don't be

surprised if people start to not show up.

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It has happened.

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I mean, I wouldn't say it's been common

for me But when I hit that it's like when

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I strike gold or I hit the you know I hit

the water main and it starts to gush a

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little bit They start running for cover.

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It's not uncommon.

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So I will usually send out a note

or two to them if I don't hear

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from them and they're not booking

and say, Hey, I understand.

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And I go right to it.

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Letting them know that I know our last

session was really whatever powerful,

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painful, intense, whatever the word is.

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But I think that's what we need, right?

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So if you want to continue

this change, understand.

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Now we just work through it.

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Right.

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We already ripped off the bandaid.

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Let's keep going so that you can.

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And usually that acknowledgement gets

them to, but so I don't terminate quickly.

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I

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John: No, I wouldn't either may depend

on what point the client is in, because

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there, there are also situations,

especially like we've talked about auto

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renewals before we've done an episode

on that for anyone who wants to go and

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check that, but I've over the years,

I've many times worked with clients

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who are in auto renewal programs.

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So very often.

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They will actually go incommunicado

rather than have a conversation

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with you about why they may be

thinking they don't want to renew.

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And Because again, that fear of

confrontation comes up and they don't

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want to have to tell the coach, actually,

I'm not going to renew with you.

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So it's a difficult for them, a difficult

conversation that they probably imagine.

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They probably imagine the coach

is going to probably do what the

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coach will do and say Why is that?

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Let's talk about it and maybe

try and convince them to stay.

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But that's not really

necessarily the coach's job.

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Of course, we want our clients to

stay in coaching, but only if they

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want to and only if they're going

to benefit from it, not because we

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want to get their money off them.

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So I think that's definitely

something that starts to come up.

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I've seen in group coaching as well.

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People just start to not show

because they haven't taken the

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actions and they're embarrassed.

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It's, this is more of a group thing, but

it does happen in one to ones as well.

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They're embarrassed about not having

done all their actions, commit, not

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follow through on all their commitments.

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And they don't want to have to

confront that in front of the group.

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And most people will deal with that,

I always try and frame it up on those

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calls about how important it is that

we're not looking When we check in on

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your actions, it's not to judge you.

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It's not so you can beat yourself up.

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If you didn't do things perfectly,

it's to check in and see where's

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: 00:16:33

the room for improvement.

329

: 00:16:34

How do we grow?

330

: 00:16:34

Because none of us are perfect.

331

: 00:16:36

And we're all looking for growth

and development, and we're all

332

: 00:16:38

here to support each other on that.

333

: 00:16:40

So even if you don't get everything

done, or even you have the worst

334

: 00:16:43

week and you're thinking, Oh crap,

I didn't get all my actions done.

335

: 00:16:46

Show up anyway.

336

: 00:16:48

Because that's growth, showing

up even when it's difficult

337

: 00:16:51

is growth, is development

338

: 00:16:54

Angie: I think us having

grace for clients.

339

: 00:16:57

It teaches them to have

grace for themselves, right?

340

: 00:17:00

To not be so judgmental, to understand

that everything is a process and that

341

: 00:17:05

we're not looking for the perfect outcome.

342

: 00:17:07

And even if it doesn't, even if you do

fall a little short from a goal, if you

343

: 00:17:11

left the starting line, you're already

ahead of where you were when you got here.

344

: 00:17:15

So I'm, I, to your, To that little

point, I am always very Hey, I always

345

: 00:17:21

tell, I say this, I'm not your mama.

346

: 00:17:23

I'm not here to judge.

347

: 00:17:24

I'm not here to tell you to wag

my finger and say, okay, little

348

: 00:17:27

Johnny, you didn't do your work.

349

: 00:17:29

I go straight into, and they're shocked.

350

: 00:17:32

I think that there's a shock

there like what she didn't get

351

: 00:17:35

angry or disappointed in me.

352

: 00:17:36

And I'm like, all right, so let's see.

353

: 00:17:38

What did you do?

354

: 00:17:39

What worked?

355

: 00:17:39

I don't even think about it.

356

: 00:17:40

I don't even talk about, unless it's

like a, habitual thing and it's excuses.

357

: 00:17:45

Then we talk about that.

358

: 00:17:46

But.

359

: 00:17:46

But that isn't necessarily the space.

360

: 00:17:50

I think, did you ever have,

I wanted to ask you this.

361

: 00:17:52

I was thinking about this earlier because

you have coached coaches as I have.

362

: 00:17:57

I've trained coaches.

363

: 00:17:59

And when I talk about this topic

with them, it is hilarious to me.

364

: 00:18:04

How many I have a couple of

people that go, what do you care?

365

: 00:18:10

Cause for me, I don't know about you, but

my coaching programs are paid in advance.

366

: 00:18:15

It is not a pay as you go

367

: 00:18:17

John: we've talked about that.

368

: 00:18:18

Yeah, I'm paying in advance as well.

369

: 00:18:20

Always paying, always pay up front.

370

: 00:18:22

Yeah,

371

: 00:18:22

Angie: Yeah.

372

: 00:18:22

So I've had people say

to me, what do you care?

373

: 00:18:26

If they show up or not, what do you care?

374

: 00:18:29

You're getting paid anyway.

375

: 00:18:30

And I'm like Whoa.

376

: 00:18:32

You and I need to talk.

377

: 00:18:33

Like I will definitely have a

little side conversation there.

378

: 00:18:37

Because the process, if you're a true

coach at heart, yes, you want to get paid

379

: 00:18:41

for what you do, but it's I'm a surgeon.

380

: 00:18:43

I'm not going to just do surgery

on people and take their money

381

: 00:18:46

and say, here, I cut you open.

382

: 00:18:47

I sewed you up and I told you I did

something and I didn't do anything.

383

: 00:18:50

That's not how I do business.

384

: 00:18:52

I'm not just here to take people's money.

385

: 00:18:55

I'm here to get paid what I'm

worth for doing the job that I do.

386

: 00:19:00

Right.

387

: 00:19:00

But have you ever had that?

388

: 00:19:02

Have you ever had people say that to you?

389

: 00:19:05

John: No but I look at it, but

I have, it has crossed my mind.

390

: 00:19:08

It has crossed my mind.

391

: 00:19:09

Julia, it's just you.

392

: 00:19:11

I don't think anyone's

ever said that to me.

393

: 00:19:13

I don't recall if they did.

394

: 00:19:15

But the difference of, I

always think about, I often

395

: 00:19:18

think about gym memberships.

396

: 00:19:19

Maybe there's a reason for that, but

there's a different, most of us have

397

: 00:19:22

probably had memberships in different

gyms over time, and maybe had different

398

: 00:19:26

experiences about how they kept it.

399

: 00:19:28

And so, and maybe we had different levels

of commitment to showing how show up.

400

: 00:19:32

Some gyms are just going to take your

money and don't care if you show up or

401

: 00:19:34

not, but there's going to be those, but

there's going to be those places that

402

: 00:19:37

will actually send you a message, an SMS,

WhatsApp or text or call you even if they

403

: 00:19:43

haven't seen, if they see that you haven't

actually been to the gym in a while.

404

: 00:19:48

That feels like a level of care that

I think probably coaches could manage

405

: 00:19:52

to do as well for their clients.

406

: 00:19:54

And and I do think one of the things

that any, this is possibly more the

407

: 00:20:00

case for people who have their own

business as coaches, but I think it's

408

: 00:20:03

just as important, even if you're

working with a coaching organization,

409

: 00:20:07

if you're able to follow up with people

and check in with what's going on.

410

: 00:20:13

I think that's one of the, yeah.

411

: 00:20:15

One of the biggest differences that

shows people that you care as a coach

412

: 00:20:18

and that you're not just about the money.

413

: 00:20:20

And I do think it's something we probably

all don't do as well as we could.

414

: 00:20:25

And not saying that you need

to say you don't want to be

415

: 00:20:29

their mother or their parent.

416

: 00:20:30

You don't need to be that you're not their

caretaker, but checking in with them.

417

: 00:20:34

That's something a little different.

418

: 00:20:36

We check in with our friends, we

check in with people we care about.

419

: 00:20:40

If we care about our

clients, and hopefully we do.

420

: 00:20:42

Otherwise, we're just working

with them for the dollars,

421

: 00:20:46

otherwise, then check in with them

422

: 00:20:49

Angie: Right.

423

: 00:20:50

John: Give yourself the opportunity

to fix that up and set that up.

424

: 00:20:54

I think even if they're going through a

challenging time, they're far more likely

425

: 00:20:56

to develop a longer term loyalty to you

as their coach if you show that you care

426

: 00:21:02

about them in between sessions or when

they're having a bit of a challenging

427

: 00:21:06

time that they don't even feel that

they can talk to you about just yet.

428

: 00:21:09

I don't know, that's my feeling on

it because I think otherwise they

429

: 00:21:12

will be the ones wanting to fire you.

430

: 00:21:15

Angie: well, listen, and to that,

to, and to that, I, I was thinking

431

: 00:21:19

this, because we've talked about

refunds and things in the past.

432

: 00:21:23

And one of the things that is

in my contract and it's worded,

433

: 00:21:27

appropriately, and I discuss it outright.

434

: 00:21:30

I don't just say, here's the contract.

435

: 00:21:32

If you have any questions, I say,

I will be sending you a contract.

436

: 00:21:35

The important part of that contract

that you must, and I make them initial.

437

: 00:21:39

There's a special initial just

for that particular part of it.

438

: 00:21:44

And it's that I don't do refunds.

439

: 00:21:48

I don't give refunds unless it's me.

440

: 00:21:50

Unless it's I, I haven't

had to use it, but if it's a

441

: 00:21:53

circumstance that is, from my end.

442

: 00:21:57

Whatever it may be and why it may

be personal reasons like, Oh, I

443

: 00:22:01

had to have surgery or something.

444

: 00:22:03

I will give a refund, but

I do not give refunds now.

445

: 00:22:08

Why?

446

: 00:22:10

Because I don't want in the back of

somebody's mind, not because I don't

447

: 00:22:14

want to give them the money back.

448

: 00:22:15

Not because I'm trying to hold their

money hostage, but there's a higher

449

: 00:22:20

level of commitment when somebody has

that feeling of, I have to do this.

450

: 00:22:26

So if they've committed to the

financial piece, for some reason

451

: 00:22:30

that tends to keep them more like,

all right, I've committed to this.

452

: 00:22:35

I have to do it.

453

: 00:22:36

And I should do it well because I didn't

get, she's not charging me 50 a session.

454

: 00:22:41

So I should make the most of this.

455

: 00:22:43

Now that doesn't mean that I

wouldn't have the conversation.

456

: 00:22:46

If somebody was really unhappy, I might

say to them, you know what, that's fine.

457

: 00:22:51

But I'm not, there's no, I'm

not giving you your money back.

458

: 00:22:55

So again, different conversation, but

I think it helps to keep the sessions

459

: 00:23:00

honest and keep people a little bit

more committed because that's it,

460

: 00:23:05

John: would look there's the same, I'm

no refunds to a point and for one off

461

: 00:23:11

sessions that I sometimes do with people,

462

: 00:23:13

Angie: Oh yeah.

463

: 00:23:14

Yeah,

464

: 00:23:16

John: again, unless it's something that

I've messed up, but for clients who

465

: 00:23:20

are maybe, who are probably going to be

working with me for longer than that,

466

: 00:23:23

I will generally say if in the first

month, either of us decide that this

467

: 00:23:28

isn't really working out or getting us

where we want to be, then sure, I'll give

468

: 00:23:33

you a full refund, we part as friends,

shake hands, and no hard feelings.

469

: 00:23:37

Is that okay?

470

: 00:23:38

That usually sets people's mind up,

because we do want to take away some

471

: 00:23:42

of the risk for them, and I think that

can Be a decision that stops people

472

: 00:23:46

getting over the line with sales in

terms of being a coach that if you

473

: 00:23:50

can take away some of the risk for

them thinking, okay I've actually

474

: 00:23:53

got a bit of time to figure this out.

475

: 00:23:55

Even after my decision is made,

it's so rare because usually.

476

: 00:24:00

It usually in my experience, the

decision that they want to quit

477

: 00:24:04

comes up around renewal time, not

in the first month of coaching.

478

: 00:24:08

So if it isn't working out, then

it does mean that you've messed

479

: 00:24:11

up in the discovery process a bit.

480

: 00:24:12

And there's some stuff to learn from that.

481

: 00:24:14

I, what could you maybe change

in the discovery process

482

: 00:24:17

to figure that out better?

483

: 00:24:18

But I would say as well, it

is a good way to help get some

484

: 00:24:22

of the sales over the line.

485

: 00:24:23

So you may not want to go

completely down the track of going

486

: 00:24:26

no refunds whatsoever under any

circumstances, each to the right.

487

: 00:24:30

Angie: no, listen, knock on wood.

488

: 00:24:31

I haven't had to.

489

: 00:24:32

And honestly, if I go into the

first session, And I go, Oh, my

490

: 00:24:36

gosh, what is happening here?

491

: 00:24:38

This is not the person I spoke

to during my discovery call.

492

: 00:24:41

I might say, okay, but I

haven't had that experience yet.

493

: 00:24:45

And you can't prepare

for every experience.

494

: 00:24:46

But I think what it comes down to is us

being able to as coaches having the the

495

: 00:24:53

professionalism to know when it's time

to terminate a relationship, a contract

496

: 00:24:59

with somebody and wanting to make sure

that we do it as diplomatically as we

497

: 00:25:04

possibly can, for a multitude of reasons,

just because simply it's the right

498

: 00:25:08

thing to do, whether it's the, not the

right fit or we talked about earlier,

499

: 00:25:12

somebody is being, really disrespectful

things that we're not willing to

500

: 00:25:17

tolerate, or they're just not showing up.

501

: 00:25:20

No, those are to me, those

that's grounds for termination.

502

: 00:25:25

So,

503

: 00:25:28

John: Yeah, I can't really think of

any other situations off the top of

504

: 00:25:32

my head where I would be like, all

right that, that's not gonna work out.

505

: 00:25:36

It's not going to fly in the

coaching relationship, but that

506

: 00:25:38

doesn't mean that there aren't any.

507

: 00:25:40

What would you say?

508

: 00:25:41

Angie: no.

509

: 00:25:42

And something just came to me

cause I had a client years ago.

510

: 00:25:45

I didn't terminate the client, but

I had to set the record straight.

511

: 00:25:49

Let me just say that this particular

client, he was not from America,

512

: 00:25:54

which doesn't matter, right?

513

: 00:25:56

That's not the point, but he

had very, and this is fine.

514

: 00:26:00

Very different perspectives

about the woman's place

515

: 00:26:05

John: Okay.

516

: 00:26:06

Angie: and that's fine.

517

: 00:26:07

Heritage and all of that.

518

: 00:26:09

So he didn't intentionally disrespect

me, but he would always say things

519

: 00:26:12

like you wouldn't really understand

that because you're a woman.

520

: 00:26:17

And it wasn't things that

I couldn't understand.

521

: 00:26:19

I don't know, dare I say this, John?

522

: 00:26:20

No, I wouldn't understand

about having a penis.

523

: 00:26:22

Cause I don't have one.

524

: 00:26:24

John: Right.

525

: 00:26:25

Angie: But it was, did I just say that?

526

: 00:26:28

I don't think that's going to

make it to the air, but okay.

527

: 00:26:30

But anyway, but he would say

things that I could very have, I

528

: 00:26:35

could very easily have related to.

529

: 00:26:38

And he would just make this like

these little you wouldn't get that.

530

: 00:26:41

You're a woman, you're

a woman, you're a woman.

531

: 00:26:43

And finally I just, and he was a

great client, but I finally said

532

: 00:26:46

to him, let me ask you a question.

533

: 00:26:48

Can we pause there for a minute?

534

: 00:26:49

And I took it in the moment

instead of going back and

535

: 00:26:52

saying, you said this 20 times.

536

: 00:26:54

Why do you think I

wouldn't understand that?

537

: 00:26:56

Because I'm a woman.

538

: 00:26:58

And he thought he had this great.

539

: 00:27:00

And I came back and said are you

okay with a teaching moment here?

540

: 00:27:04

Yeah, sure.

541

: 00:27:05

And I said here was my experience

with that as a woman and true story.

542

: 00:27:10

And he was like, So his habit was

to just be like because you're

543

: 00:27:14

a woman now that term that could

have warranted like serious like

544

: 00:27:19

termination because I was feeling and

I was like, I have to shut that down.

545

: 00:27:23

Right?

546

: 00:27:24

Because I'm being somehow and

I hate this flippant word.

547

: 00:27:27

Triggered because I was like, it

was like sending up my antenna gone.

548

: 00:27:31

What?

549

: 00:27:32

Why do you think that I

wouldn't understand that?

550

: 00:27:35

But he understood in that moment,

the redirection, but, let me show

551

: 00:27:39

you that I do understand and I said,

and I asked him, I said, do I have

552

: 00:27:44

permission to call you out the next

time you say, because you're a woman?

553

: 00:27:47

And he was like, yeah.

554

: 00:27:48

And I mean, it happened a lot, but

I didn't terminate him because I

555

: 00:27:52

knew it really wasn't coming from a

place where he was being judgmental.

556

: 00:27:56

It was just a belief system.

557

: 00:27:58

So I, as a coach needed to understand

it, even though I didn't agree with it.

558

: 00:28:04

Does that make sense?

559

: 00:28:05

But another coach.

560

: 00:28:07

I know coaches that I shared that story

with when it was happening and they

561

: 00:28:10

were like, screw him, get rid of him.

562

: 00:28:13

And I was like, no, I don't think so.

563

: 00:28:15

So it could be though,

something like that, where

564

: 00:28:18

there's just such a difference.

565

: 00:28:20

Of opinion that you go, I can't do

566

: 00:28:23

John: look, I think I've probably said

to you before that I've worked with

567

: 00:28:26

clients from all around the world,

from all sorts of different religions,

568

: 00:28:28

some of them with beliefs that would

not, probably not be compatible with

569

: 00:28:34

us being friends in the real world, and

and there's some cultures and religions

570

: 00:28:40

are particularly homophobic, and that's

what I'm really talking about there.

571

: 00:28:43

And And does that mean I can't

work with people who are like that?

572

: 00:28:48

I absolutely can, unless it starts

to come into conflict with my values.

573

: 00:28:52

That's where it starts, and that, that's,

it, that actually starts to come into

574

: 00:28:55

the whole thing of disrespect as well,

because even if they don't know about

575

: 00:28:59

your life personally making assumptions

that you're, that you think a certain

576

: 00:29:03

way, or that you naturally agree

with them That's disrespect as well.

577

: 00:29:09

Angie: sure.

578

: 00:29:09

Absolutely.

579

: 00:29:10

Absolutely.

580

: 00:29:11

And again, in that particular case, that

was probably one of the most obvious.

581

: 00:29:16

I mean, I've had people make little

comments and I've had women make comments

582

: 00:29:20

that, and I will call them out the same.

583

: 00:29:22

It wasn't about me.

584

: 00:29:23

They might say something about men or,

a corporate ladder and it's still a

585

: 00:29:27

man's world and all the things and I

might have to check in on that as well.

586

: 00:29:31

So it's not one sided but I do think

that it's important to recognize what

587

: 00:29:35

you said is that sometimes we do interact

with people who to 1 degree or another.

588

: 00:29:42

Have a very different value

and belief system than we do.

589

: 00:29:45

And

590

: 00:29:46

John: Yeah.

591

: 00:29:46

Angie: remember me talking to you

about, the client who identified

592

: 00:29:49

as a vagina, like I, I coached

that woman for a long time.

593

: 00:29:54

Look at you and your face getting red.

594

: 00:29:56

John: Because, I don't know how

many, is there any more genitalia

595

: 00:30:01

you'd care to mention on the episode

596

: 00:30:03

Angie: My God, I don't

know what to say today.

597

: 00:30:05

All right.

598

: 00:30:05

You just need to edit that stuff out.

599

: 00:30:07

I don't know what to say, but that

was a real thing that happened.

600

: 00:30:10

I guess

601

: 00:30:10

John: It was a real, it was

a real thing that happened.

602

: 00:30:13

We're getting all of

it in today's episode.

603

: 00:30:17

Angie: you didn't know that this

was going to be 10th grade about,

604

: 00:30:22

John: I should have.

605

: 00:30:23

I should have known.

606

: 00:30:23

I should have.

607

: 00:30:24

I should have.

608

: 00:30:24

Before we even started but look, it's

it's one thing I've talked before

609

: 00:30:28

about now I've had the slightly

problematic or people who have some

610

: 00:30:32

have deeper issues going on that

sometimes come out in very inappropriate

611

: 00:30:38

ways on things like coaching calls.

612

: 00:30:40

That's a very different matter.

613

: 00:30:42

Angie: Or during a podcast episode.

614

: 00:30:44

John: watch a podcast recording.

615

: 00:30:46

It's a very, it's a very different

matter that needs to be handled a bit

616

: 00:30:49

differently, but you are going to sack

them probably because it's just not

617

: 00:30:53

appropriate for you to be working with

them when they need something else.

618

: 00:30:57

So that's a very different situation,

I think, to what we're talking about.

619

: 00:31:01

But realistically, if you had a

client so you get on great and all

620

: 00:31:06

that, and then you get into their

goals with them and things like that.

621

: 00:31:08

And it turns out that their goals

are in conflict with your values.

622

: 00:31:14

You can't work with them, you're going to

feel like shit about it, you're going to

623

: 00:31:17

be like, you're going to be in that sort

of lawyer's position of having to work

624

: 00:31:21

with the try and get the guilty person

off in court, and he's you have to, it

625

: 00:31:26

might be your job, but you have to go

against your own ethical instincts to

626

: 00:31:30

Angie: I think we should actually make

a whole entire episode out of that

627

: 00:31:33

because I think that is something that

when you're the more you work with

628

: 00:31:39

more, the more people you work with.

629

: 00:31:43

The more you're going to find that.

630

: 00:31:45

And it's not just about,

Oh, we're just diverse.

631

: 00:31:48

Of course, diversity is awesome.

632

: 00:31:50

But when you get to speaking with somebody

who at their core, it just doesn't fit.

633

: 00:31:58

It can be problematic in your

coaching, even if you don't

634

: 00:32:00

realize it, it's going to show up.

635

: 00:32:03

So how do you manage it?

636

: 00:32:05

John: There is that thing as well of, you

may in the course of coaching, find out

637

: 00:32:09

things about your client that could cause

you to lose complete respect for them.

638

: 00:32:14

Angie: Yeah.

639

: 00:32:14

John: How do you then keep working

with them in a coaching relationship

640

: 00:32:18

where you're supposed to be helping

them grow and develop because

641

: 00:32:20

it's not your job to change them.

642

: 00:32:22

It's their, you can be their

guide, but it's their job and

643

: 00:32:25

they would actually even have to

want to change and they may not.

644

: 00:32:28

So that might be something that gets

you into a position as you, the more

645

: 00:32:33

you coach, the more you will start to

encounter these kinds of situations.

646

: 00:32:37

Angie: Yep.

647

: 00:32:38

Absolutely.

648

: 00:32:39

I think becoming a coach, I probably

would end with this has opened my eyes

649

: 00:32:44

to how different we really are and how

I, this sounds a little bit ridiculous,

650

: 00:32:51

but how different from my world or any

world that I have been a part of growing

651

: 00:32:57

up, how different people really are.

652

: 00:32:59

Right perceptions and beliefs and stories

and a lot of it is the same, right?

653

: 00:33:05

That's where we all come together.

654

: 00:33:06

And, we understand each other as humans,

but so many things that I, might hang up

655

: 00:33:11

from a call or and turn around and go.

656

: 00:33:13

Wow.

657

: 00:33:13

That was really interesting.

658

: 00:33:15

And I'm not saying it

from a judgmental space.

659

: 00:33:17

I'm saying it from wow.

660

: 00:33:19

I didn't see that.

661

: 00:33:20

Right.

662

: 00:33:20

It's not always negative.

663

: 00:33:22

Sometimes it's wow, what a

great alternative perspective

664

: 00:33:25

that this person shared that I

actually learned something today.

665

: 00:33:29

That can happen by the way.

666

: 00:33:31

A lot.

667

: 00:33:32

John: Do you think to follow on from

that before we do wind this down?

668

: 00:33:37

Do you think as a coach that

you at least need to decide what

669

: 00:33:41

your threshold boundaries are?

670

: 00:33:45

with clients and do they, do

you feel that they need to be

671

: 00:33:49

expressed to your clients as well?

672

: 00:33:50

You, I think you said before I'm sure

I've said this to clients as well.

673

: 00:33:54

I don't do relationship coaching.

674

: 00:33:56

I don't do, these are things

that I won't do with you.

675

: 00:33:58

That to some degree is

a threshold boundary.

676

: 00:34:01

Right.

677

: 00:34:01

But what do you think?

678

: 00:34:02

Angie: So do I?

679

: 00:34:04

I know, I don't think I set any boundaries

because, and I think the reason that

680

: 00:34:09

I don't is because I don't know yet.

681

: 00:34:12

I don't know this person.

682

: 00:34:13

I don't know the stories.

683

: 00:34:14

I don't know how, like I might say,

I don't talk about this, but let's

684

: 00:34:18

just say the relationship pops up.

685

: 00:34:21

And I will say to people I will

coach you on your behavior, but

686

: 00:34:25

this is right now is hearsay.

687

: 00:34:27

There's not another person here

present that we're working together.

688

: 00:34:30

So we need to shift this a

little bit and talk about you.

689

: 00:34:36

So, I don't think I've said it in advance.

690

: 00:34:41

But there have been times during

the course of the journey with a

691

: 00:34:44

client where I've had to say, okay,

let's draw this line because I can't

692

: 00:34:50

coach somebody that's not here.

693

: 00:34:52

John: I feel like.

694

: 00:34:53

That's something that has evolved

for me over years of coaching.

695

: 00:34:58

Like you figure out, you figure

these things out, you figure

696

: 00:35:00

out what the boundaries are.

697

: 00:35:02

But I can certainly think of coaching

situations I've had where I wished

698

: 00:35:05

I already had that figured out and

just be able to say, not have to

699

: 00:35:09

go away and think about, did you

just cross a big boundary here?

700

: 00:35:12

Now sometimes it's very clear when

a boundary has been crossed and it

701

: 00:35:14

needs to be addressed, but Yes, there

are times when I can directly think,

702

: 00:35:19

yeah, I probably wish I'd had stuff,

had that stuff figured out in advance,

703

: 00:35:22

but it's not easy to do and probably

is something you'll figure out along

704

: 00:35:26

the way where the boundaries are.

705

: 00:35:29

Angie: Absolutely.

706

: 00:35:29

Until you experience something, I'm

not sure you could prepare for it.

707

: 00:35:34

It really is that cliche, like you

don't know what you don't know.

708

: 00:35:37

So you might even set a boundary and

then if that, and if it presents in

709

: 00:35:41

during the course, you might actually

say, Oh, I can maneuver and navigate

710

: 00:35:45

through this somehow, some way.

711

: 00:35:48

But then there might be something that

you didn't plan for and you are completely

712

: 00:35:53

uncomfortable and you realize that it's

affecting you because let's just face

713

: 00:35:57

it, everybody like the truth is you are

still human, even though you're a coach,

714

: 00:36:02

so you cannot go in and pretend that

you have this shield of armor around you

715

: 00:36:08

where nothing's ever going to affect you.

716

: 00:36:10

That's just not possible, whether

you cry with a client, right?

717

: 00:36:14

That used to be something that I would

be like, I'm never going to get emotional

718

: 00:36:16

with a client because I was taught by

somebody that wasn't a good practice.

719

: 00:36:21

And then I had a client who lost a

child and there was no possibility

720

: 00:36:26

that I was going to sit there stone

faced and go, so how, let's talk about.

721

: 00:36:30

The birds today.

722

: 00:36:31

No, absolutely not.

723

: 00:36:33

So anyway, so I just feel like it's

more about for me, it's more about

724

: 00:36:37

flow and discovering those things.

725

: 00:36:40

And how I would handle

them, going forward.

726

: 00:36:45

John: I agree.

727

: 00:36:45

Okay, I think we have some

level of consensus there.

728

: 00:36:48

It's an interesting topic.

729

: 00:36:49

I think there are, I could certainly

think of a few other aspects that we

730

: 00:36:52

could go and explore, but I think they'll

come up in other areas that we're going

731

: 00:36:56

Angie: you're still fired.

732

: 00:36:57

No,

733

: 00:37:01

John: Torgie you ca you can't fire me

I quit Not really We'll be back again

734

: 00:37:06

Angie: really backward teasing.

735

: 00:37:08

John: If you have thoughts about

firing your class, maybe you have

736

: 00:37:11

some experiences, you're thinking,

no, this is an experience that we

737

: 00:37:13

Angie: Oh yeah.

738

: 00:37:14

John: Maybe we'd love to hear it.

739

: 00:37:16

And so, yeah, get in touch with us.

740

: 00:37:18

You can leave us, it's free to do, but you

can leave us a voice message for the show.

741

: 00:37:20

You can do it on your laptop.

742

: 00:37:22

So as you have a microphone,

but go to speakpipe.

743

: 00:37:25

com forward slash the coaching

clinic podcast, and you can leave

744

: 00:37:28

us a voicemail there, and we will

absolutely feature you on the show.

745

: 00:37:33

And in the meantime, have an amazing week.

746

: 00:37:36

We will be back next time.

747

: 00:37:37

Who knows what we'll be talking

about on our next episode.

748

: 00:37:40

Tune in and find out.

749

: 00:37:41

Angie: Bye for now.